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replied 2258d
Doesn't matter what type money it is. Once you loan it out, it becomes debt. That money can then be reloaned again, making more debt. Please read the article posted.
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replied 2258d
A correction, it is not possible to do do fractional reserve lending with Bitcoin as in lending out more Bitcoin directly than you have. You need to give IOUs with Bitcoin as reserve.
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replied 2258d
Banker understand this. The single BTC can be re-loaned multiple times. John to charlie to mike then frank. 1 BTC passed hands in the loan but created 3 BTCs worth of Debt.
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The reason banks could issue so much debt with fiat, gold, silver, salt, seashells is because paper IOUs are easier to use. BCH IOUs are not easier to use than BCH.
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replied 2258d
I tried explaining this to him earlier, but maybe you'll get through to him.
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replied 2258d
Have you tried carrying a full scale desktop to your local store, set it down, plug it in, connecting the cables, synchronize the node. It is a real hassle, BCH IOUs (Tabs) way easier.
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I keep an all-in-one rigged to a car battery strapped on my back whenever I leave the house. A real man uses nothing less than a full node.
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That is where the Bolt11 address LN name comes from, a reference to the nuts and bolts of battery packs on the backs of real mean, and the LN get its name from the sparks of the plugs.
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I misspelled men as mean, a Frankenstein(s) monster of the singular and plural form of the word, squish men and man together and you get mean.
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lol thanks, just slogged through a "resource based economy" with lightrider, now this. where do these proposals come from?!
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Banks would have to print notes (which no one would trust) that say they are worth one BTC.

And if a depositor at the bank tried to withdraw the one BTC, the bank would be insolvent.
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replied 2258d
This is simple lending. :) John lends to charlie then charlie lends to bob. 1 BTC has created 2 BTC's worth of Debt Contracts that need to be paid on time. This is Debt money.
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And then when depositors withdrew the money proper, bye-bye bank.
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No, the bank would collect Charlie and Bob Houses from the default on the 1 BTC. They didn't print money, they created Debt money contracts. They did this with Gold for centurys.
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Debt money contracts are bank notes. Good luck getting someone to accept a Bitcoin bank note, when it offers no more convenience over using BTC. People wouldn't trust it.
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Among other things, Bitcoin can be proven and trusted with POW and audited and traced with the transparent blockchain.
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Think a loan, a promise to pay BTC in this amount of time. Its not money, but it is DEBT. They did not print anything but created 1 BTC worth of debt through the loan.
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Whoever purchases the debt (you're referring to trading debt) assume the risk of the loan defaulting. You couldn't use these contracts to purchase goods. Only to cash in on the debtor.
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- A better explanation of perpetual debt.
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Nobody would trust a Fiat note backed by BTC. Nobody would accept the debt money.
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Without spending, the BTC can pass back up the chain of debt. With spending, the BTC to repay the debt must come from elsewhere.
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True but once that BTC hits a savings account or the bank doesnt lend it out, Its no longer available to service the Debt contracts payable only in BTC.
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You are describing fractional reserve banking, which can be done with anything in theory. But there is no Bitcoin press in case of a run on the banks.
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Simon Van Gelder
replied 2258d
Who in their right mind would loan money that can't be recouped via law?
replied 2258d
Exactly the point. The real value is the collateral, not the money. :) If you can restrict the money circulating via loans, you can collect collateral.
Simon Van Gelder
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I see. Do you agree that Crypto has the possibility to be a positive asset, and not just be "good for all debts, public and private"?
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Bitcoin as money wont break the bankers debt money system, Tokens ontop of bitcoin will through self issued credit.
Simon Van Gelder
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Do you see Bitcoin as money gradually superseding the "debt money system" due to efficiency (if not destroying it entirely)?
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Gold, Bitcoin, salt anything that is a Uniform, single commodity given its Value by its Scarcity (or abundance) can become debt money. People will have to issue their own credit.
Simon Van Gelder
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Wouldn't that just perpetuate the debt? Wouldn't a more sensible solution be to reject lending entirely?
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Self issued credit backed by the persons or businesses promise of Goods or Services only is the only way to end debt money.
Simon Van Gelder
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Do you want slavery? Because that's how you get slavery.
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I disagree. How so?
Simon Van Gelder
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Enforcing delivery of a service is essentially slavery, unless I am missing something.
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Only if you yourself promised issued a credit to do so. Its 100% voluntary.
Simon Van Gelder
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Slavery agreed to in the past is still slavery.
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replied 2258d
If you call free will slavery, then we are all slaves.
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Good thing nobody is calling free will slavery. Human will is, however, inalienable. If I agree to work 5 days for 100 dollars, I can leave in 4 days with 80, if I am free.
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minkaminka
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"Free" is when you put energy in things that interest you. Responsibility may be one of them for some people. There's also a level of suffering that comes with ultimate freedom.
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Then there is not difference than pricing your labor in credits you yourself own and produce. Which is not controlled by those who control the money your labor is priced in,
Simon Van Gelder
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Yes it is: you get paid after the work, not before.
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If you break your promises of labor in a credit system, no one will accept your credit anymore and become bankrupt until you can return to good credit. Its all on you keeping truthful.
Simon Van Gelder
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And what, pray tell, must someone in "bad credit" do to restore credit? By doing the work originally promised?
Simon Van Gelder
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And you have the option of changing your type or application of labor (not a coal-miner for ever).
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Changing employment wouldnt be affected one bit. You would be paid in the credits (think of stock.) of the company you work under.
Simon Van Gelder
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I don't work for coupons. That's a very ruff sell.
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also, in your bio think you mean Bitcoin will become the prison of our *grandchildren* not forefathers. can be a prison in the past/before it was created.
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Our forefathers were imprisoned by Gold, we are returning to that same prison with Bitcoin. Banks will still wield BTC as Debt money.
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Banks and governments, and others looking to create something out of nothing, were restricted by gold.
minkaminka
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You are starting a thread on fundamentals in the psychology of wealth-building. Gold is important as BTC is important because man has fear. Fears are subsided with a form of security.
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To add to that, man holds a cash balance to prepare for uncertainty.
minkaminka
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There's always uncertainty. Just makes us feel better. So, anything to mitigate risk and the feeling of suffering.
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Not exactly. You can still create debt money with Gold. Just lend 1$ to your friend and him lend it again and once more, congrats, you indebted 3$ of goods with 1$. No printing needed.
Simon Van Gelder
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You cannot give away freewill, even by virtue of freewill. Even slaves have freewill: it's just that it might not matter when they're perpetually indebted by their father's fathers.
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It sounds crazy to issue your own credit, but it makes sense.
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Wouldn't the free market decide the value of these tokens in Bitcoin?
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Its not a free market issue. Check out Moneyasdebt.net to understand better.
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It can be done with full reserves. I lend 1 BTC, you lend 1 BTC, then they lend 1 BTC. Now there is 3 BTC worth of debt on real goods, and 1 BTC to pay them. Default is inevitable.
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You can't loan more Bitcoin collectively than exists. And you can't print more to make up for it. The lending pool runs dry, it stays dry.
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You dont have to print it up. You loan me 1 BTC then i loan it again for 1 BTC. Now there is 2 BTC worth of DEBT in the system with only 1 BTC worth of money. Bankers revel in this.
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Well, ideally it should work like this:

1 BTC is lent by Alice to John

John re-lends it to Joe

Joe pays back john 1 BTC, who then settles his debt with Alice with that same 1 BTC.
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It does not matter how many people lend the single Bitcoin in a chain, the total amount of debt is still just one Bitcoin. What people mean when they say "Lend Bitcoin" is creating IOU
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Luis saves the 1 BTC. Now John and Joe Are screwed, they created 2 BTCs worth of debt, and its in luis savings. John and Joe lose their shirts.
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Alice to John then to Joe, but why would Joe borrow just to return the 1 BTC in existence? He wants to buy something. He buys a car, from luis. Luis saves the BTC.....
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But, this model is broken too, since this example hinges on the lenders and debtors owing the entire supply of the currency, which simply does not occur IRL.
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Its nor broken. Its the failure of the gold standard. Doesn't matter the amount of BTC in existence, It can grow infinitely in DEBTS it has to pay. I could loan 1 BTC to 10 BTC of debt
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So, what you are saying is we need to eliminate debt?
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Bitcoin with tokens is the solution. So business can color tokens redeemable in goods or services only. They become self issuers of credit.
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Isn't untokenized Bitcoin already redeemable in goods or services only? Or are you talking about making a gift-card esque economy where spending is restricted to specific applications?
replied 2258d
http://www.moneyasdebt.net/ - Self issued credit is explained better here. Bitcoin as a single uniform commodity money will fall into perpetual debt, just as gold did.


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