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replied 2328d
No they don't. Logic says that because they are getting richer it can only mean they extract more wealth over time and not put it back in into society.
replied 2327d
Bad logic. In reality the money they invest is not gone. It becomes capital. If what they invest in works they get a return. Just keeping it would mean losing money with inflation.
John_Doe
replied 2326d
They generate wealth. It's a farmer growing corn and selling it stealing from the guy who buys it? He didnt pay the earth to grow it for him. How can he charge him money?
replied 2325d
I said the Capitalists (people who hire others to work for them) are the ones that get wealth which they didn't work for. Work(ers) creating useful things is what creates wealth.
replied 2328d
The less dollars in circulation, the greater the demand for dollars in circulation. The more money is hoarded, the more money becomes valuable.
replied 2327d
Your logic & logic of pretty much every other pro-capitalist is so flawed you can't see all of the effects capitalism creates, you always only focus on myths of capitalist propaganda
John_Doe
replied 2326d
Not an argument.
replied 2327d
You don't seem to understand that equal distribution of wealth. is only possible through the force of a central power. Freedom and Communism cannot coexist.
replied 2327d
Lasty, Communism has nothing about everyone having the same things or same wealth, its only about making everyone to EARN WHAT THEY HAVE FROM THEIR OWN WORK and not from work of others
replied 2327d
Profiting from your own work is fine. Working for a company without paying for the company to operate is theft and entitlement. Can't have your cake and eat it too.
replied 2327d
Thats because communism depends on an invalid idea of value. Communism has the wrong notion that value comes from labour. This is wrong and leads to zero sum systems that force poverty
replied 2325d
This is a great way to put it wow
replied 2327d
How the fuck can so many of you be so fucking blind!?
replied 2325d
I ask myself that question about communists all the time. How can you not see the obvious truth that I spelled out for you?
John_Doe
replied 2326d
Not an argument.
replied 2327d
And what has America been doing for decades and decades? KILLING OTHER PEOPLE, OVERTHROWING OTHER GOVERNMENTS, 1000 MILITARY BASES OUTSIDE US, ITS ALL CALLED CAPITALIST IMPERIALISM!!!
replied 2325d
No, some just pretend that is capitalist imperialism to justify their bad ideas. I don't care for it, but I understand the idea of a nation protecting it's interests.
replied 2324d
America & UK haven't been protecting their interests, they have been ATTACKING, KILLING, TORTURING & EXPLOITING OTHERS and blaming others for shit they have been doing all this time!
replied 2324d
Well if you are just going to make stuff up then communists eat babies since they have no food.
replied 2324d
wow, you are calling me a liar when I say that US/UK have been attacking others? If you don't even see this reality why am I talking to you at all. You are still fully in the Matrix.
replied 2324d
To pretend they are just evil and killing for fun shows you have no idea what goes on in this world. Yes troops are sent places, yes military bases exist, and are asked for.
replied 2327d
And Communism doesn't poverty you idiot, what it does is prevent some greedy fuckers to exploit society. Look around you stupid fuck, WHO CONTROLS AMERICA? CAPITALISTS DO!!!
replied 2325d
Why does communism always lead to poverty then? Why does capitalism always lead to a higher quality of life, and reduction in poverty?
replied 2324d
You literally have to be ignorant and brainwashed not to see the reality. Look no further then America, look at how rich Capitalists live & what they have, then look at everyone else.
replied 2324d
Yes, I've done that. Which is why I know capitalism works so well. The "poor" in capitalism are far better off than the average person under communism.
replied 2324d
Communism doesn't lead to poverty, its your perception of wealth that's wrong. In Capitalism most people are not wealthy, very small minority is & wealth inequality increases over time
replied 2324d
Inequality is natural, and not itself a problem. It can be bad when inequality goes too far, but inequality itself is fine. It happens in all forms of nature.
replied 2324d
True to a point although capitalism gives you much more opportunity at being wealthy over communism. I’ve been to Russia 4 times & have witnessed it for myself...
replied 2324d
Human mind is completely polluted with materialism, people have lost meaning of life, are so brainwashed that they can't even see when they allow mass murder due to their own ignorance
replied 2324d
This is why Monarchs, Capitalists are always fighting against it, they are literally brainwashing people to hate the very thing that frees them from being economic slaves.
replied 2324d
Communism to Capitalism (& Monarchy, Slavery & Feudalism) is what Bitcoin's PoW system is to Central banking PoS system. Its Decentralised economic system to replace centralised ones.
replied 2324d
Communism ensures no one can get stupidly rich like that, instead of 0.01% having as much as 1/2 of rest of people, all people would have way more & rich would still be well off.
replied 2324d
No one needs or deserves to be that rich, and you don't need to go to Russia to see poor, there are tens of millions of poor people right these in US but also other Capitalist nations
replied 2324d
Yes indeed, Capitalism allows you to get extremely rich but in order to do so person needs to be greedy, immoral, psychopathic maniac, no one normal needs or wants such extreme wealth.
replied 2324d
Vast majority if people in US (epicenter of Capitalism) are very POOR. National GDP is not good measure of people's wealth? Take just top 10 most wealthy out, and US is poor as shit.
replied 2324d
I judge each system by the poor. Capitalism is better for the poor.
replied 2327d
Nothing to do with value& all to do with EARNING FROM YOUR OWN WORK ONLY! COMMUNISM IS ECONOMIC SYSTEM IN WHICH WORKERS OWN MEANS OF PRODUCTION. Communism uses PROOF OF WORK concept.
replied 2325d
Capitalism allows everyone to own the means of production in a far better way. In the information age every computer is the MoP. Go produce software. Go buy shares in a company.
John_Doe
replied 2326d
More caps. Didn't get your point.
replied 2325d
Read again if you didn't get the point. Caps or no caps its still readable and point is there and its very valid one.
replied 2325d
Communism ensures the MoP are essentially useless.
replied 2324d
Do you even know what you're saying? You are saying someone producing something & benefiting from it themselves is useless. Farmer growing food, selling & taking all profit is useless?
replied 2324d
I am saying that economic model is useless. It means poverty for all, and no one to sell product to. So it ends up being useless.

Farmers make up 1% of the population. Think about it.
replied 2324d
MoP? means of production? How exactly does workers owning their own means of production makes it useless? Don't you know that this is paradox and such thing can't exist?
replied 2324d
It isn't a paradox. It is what history shows us. The only model that works is in the capitalist model of a coop. Otherwise the inevitable economic collapse makes it useless to own them
replied 2327d
Freedom & Communism can & did exist, its the private ownership their self interest, brainwashing created through TV, adds etc & creation of fear through force, that poisoned human mind
replied 2327d
Just not the freedom to keep your money? Or spend your money in excess of what the state/society approves etc.?
replied 2327d
There is no freedom without private ownership. Private ownership predates advertisement, and the other things you assume created it.
replied 2327d
No, that's rubbish. Its people like you and pro-capitalists that don't understand that wealth is EXTRACTED through production of goods and services & that the rich extract wealth.
replied 2327d
Wealth is not extracted through production of goods. Wealth is created. The rich invest in ways that allow the same amount of labour to create even more wealth.
replied 2327d
Again you show you are so clueless. While its true wealth is created from work, what is this wealth other than PROFITS? And who gets them? The Capitalist does. You just don't get it.
replied 2327d
What if i told you workers have their salaries paid in the profits of the company? Employees assume no risk, no financial liability working for the company.
replied 2327d
If I use wealth I gained in BCH & just spend it, that wealth goes back into society/economy, but if I use that money to own capitalist business, then I will hoard it & get more of it!
replied 2320d
however, by saving money (or "hoarding" it) you are better prepared for an economic downturn. if prices get cheaper you can buy more. saving has a place in the economy.
replied 2319d
You know what's funny, even if you knew nothing about Capitalism, if you only looked at actual situation in the world, you would see true effects of Capitalism in action right now
replied 2319d
Capitalists claim they use profits to make new jobs but this is not true, they use that money to hoard wealth and buy out more when they crash the markers, rinse & repeat every few yrs
replied 2307d
& poorer people cant save money & use it to buy when the market crashes?
replied 2307d
What you write is completely illogical. Think about it... poor people don't have money to save. Rich people have plenty of money to save.
replied 2307d
*poorER. people with less money.
replied 2307d
nearly everyone is poorer than the 1%
replied 2306d
The less money you have, the less you can save, at some point you can't save any money, just look at US population, 1/2 don't have ANY savings.
replied 2306d
and the less you can lose.
replied 2306d
Its just unbelievable how people like you can keep coming up with some crap replies. You dont understand many things.
replied 2306d
so if you have more money you are guaranteed greater returns? or not? in a free market nothing is guaranteed. Inb4 examples of people using the government to ensure their monopolies.
replied 2305d
Its beside the point that businesses do go bust, workers also get out of job, works both ways. Point being is that Capitalist system works for the capitalist only.
replied 2305d
capitalist invests $10M, goes bust, loses $10M. worker walked into factory, is handed a job, invests $0. goes bust, walks away, not on the hook for anything. seems fair, no?
replied 2306d
The reason people don’t have savings, isn’t because they “can’t save money”. It’s because inflationary monetary policy and debt slavery gives no incentive to save.
replied 2306d
No, that is unrelated. This has to do with people having no money LEFT to save from living expenses.
replied 2305d
With inflationary policy, credit is easy; people borrow what they cannot afford. They don't plan for their future. Look at the debt figures for households in the US. Student loans, etc
replied 2305d
America is a disgrace is every aspect
replied 2305d
Says the guy using the internet, on his smartphone. Just remember the problems in US don’t define its people. Most people are good people, governments are the real problem.
replied 2305d
And its because the people allow them to be like this. US government has been attacking others for decades & American people don't do shit about it. You deserve the government you have
replied 2305d
Our descent into tyranny has been a long process. Central banking enabled government expansion & created a giant monopoly of power. Blame the elite psychopaths not the people.
replied 2305d
So your solution is what? People should not study? Get real. Education was for free in Yugoslavia which is why we had much better educated population. US has worst educated population.
replied 2305d
Before 1998 there was no such thing as a student loan. People would work for their higher education. Some still do. College nowadays is baby sitting for adults, not education.
replied 2305d
Its just brainwashing, no education on society or thinking, "education" system in capitalism is based on training for a job, nothing more. If you lived outside US you would see this.
replied 2305d
“Education” nowadays is a laundry list of useless degrees. Millions of students learning nothing more than how to be good slaves and how to better worship slave masters.
replied 2306d
true no incentive to save. though people also seem to have this thought that the gov will just take care of them so they can take out high interest loans for jet skis & vacations.
replied 2306d
Exactly right. Most people in the US put owning toys and quick pleasures before ensuring financial future. The Fed teaches people bad habits. Just look at the natl debt.
replied 2306d
true. that & no expectation of personal responsibility anymore.
replied 2306d
The example is set by our masters. “If they don’t accept personal responsibility, why should we?”
replied 2307d
who cares what they do with the money? they've earned it. it's theirs. also, Taking it out of circulation increases the value of money still in circulation.
replied 2319d
And that is exactly what the capitalists do, hoard money, hide in off shore heavens, avoid tax, then when they crash the markets they buy out more wealth and crew over others even more
replied 2327d
More % of wealth in hands of few only mean less % of wealth for everyone else. This is how society in capitalism is designed to work you fool. Capitalists get richer, others get poorer
replied 2327d
What? Dude, Fiat is printed every fucking day. What the rich capitalists get from profits from work of others is in % more in value of that fiat then what is left for everyone else
replied 2327d
You didn't see my other post did you?
replied 2327d
That is the basics of Capitalism, not to spend profits but to put it to hire more people, get more profits from more sales & just keep doing over & over. This is how they get so rich.
replied 2327d
Why is having more money a problem again? Because there's less for the poor if they have it? Either inflation ensures there is money to pay them or deflation makes it more valuable.
replied 2327d
More $ devalues existing $. This prevents poor from saving. While it devalues $ of the rich also, their $ is increasing more then devaluing. It means rich get more % of $ over time.
replied 2327d
Doing this, they end up not only hoarding the wealth they got already, they get even more to hoard. Do you get it?
replied 2327d
As I said, if you just spend money you got, you make wealth go back into society, but capitalists don't do that (not all anyway), they use their money to make more of it (% wise).
replied 2327d
I saw the post but you are still wrong. You miss the point that even if money is not inflated, capitalist business makes % of wealth accumulate more into hands of capitalist by default
replied 2327d
Why does that matter? The poor are never paid less. That only occurs when the company wants to keep more of their profits. Something which isn't possible if employees quit.
replied 2327d
Some rich guy coming to town where people are poor, opening some business, hiring them, looks as if rich guy is helping the poor, but actually the poor are making the rich guy richer.
replied 2327d
It is not a zero sum game. Both are getting richer.
replied 2327d
If all of national wealth is 100% then if some person has increasing % of this wealth, they get richer and others get poorer. If you knew Mathematics you would know this.
replied 2327d
Checks out mathematically, just not economically. Inflation and deflation both fix this issue in different ways.
replied 2327d
It is a zero sum game. Person can only get richer IF wealth they have is increasing proportionally MORE then how much total wealth of a nation (or the world) is increasing
John_Doe
replied 2326d
If I grow $1000 worth of corn. Who did I exploit? That value did not exist before I grew my crop.
replied 2325d
You created wealth with your work. You exchange it for money which later you exchange for other useful things others created with their work.
replied 2325d
By that logic we wouldn't be able to have computers, since no one can create it alone. We need specialization, but if you specialize, you can't directly create wealth, so no money 4 u?
replied 2325d
Why does someone owning something gets to take the profits when they didn't do any of these things. Workers help capitalist get rich, the capitalist doesn't help workers, he exploits
replied 2325d
It's the company itself that takes the profits. Owning and managing a company is not "doing nothing". The company doesn't exploit them if it pays them.
replied 2325d
Ask yourself this: 2 people, 1 just owns business and pays some manager to manage it for him, another owns same businesses but manages it himself. Which one actually works? 1st or 2nd?
replied 2325d
Its the 2nd of course. Now take profits of those 2 business, both owners get profits, 1st will pay some wage to manager & take rest of profits for himself, but he did NO WORK at all.
replied 2325d
But how did he get to the point of owning a business ?
replied 2325d
Bitcoin's mining, because it uses Proof of WORK principle, enforced by mathematics, is ONLY system that breaks this pattern of Proof of STAKE exploitation (monarchy, capitalism etc)
replied 2325d
How? Having money. But how did he get it? Earned it from his own work? Inherited? Human history is all exploitative, Monarchy, Slavery, Feudalism & Capitalism, all do 1 thing: Exploit.
replied 2325d
That alone shows you that Capitalists DO exploit others, They are not helping anyone but themselves. Workers are making them richer, not other way around.
TrashPosterInTheDark
replied 2325d
Workers are free to not work for them.
replied 2325d
Let the capitalist do all the work himself, see how rich he can get, how many things he can produce. So how about you fuck off with your idiotic comments.
replied 2325d
They are also "free" to starve, right? That is such a stupid and ignorant thing to say, it really is.
TrashPosterInTheDark
replied 2325d
They are definitely free to start their own business. Nobody will stop them.
replied 2324d
Yes, but not everyone can do this. Not everyone has the skill to run a business, or some personal situations prevents it. No one should be exploited & all skills are useful.
John_Doe
replied 2324d
So you admit it takes skill to run a business. I rest my case.
TrashPosterInTheDark
replied 2324d
So because not everyone has the skill to run a business nobody should do it?
replied 2324d
That's not what I said. I said that people should not exploit other people's work as all economic systems to this day, with exception of Communism, are based on that principle.
TrashPosterInTheDark
replied 2324d
And because someone is getting a salary to do some work that person is automatically being exploited?
replied 2324d
You just don't understand how things really work in Capitalism.
replied 2324d
& where does that salary & profits for the Capitalist(s) come from? It comes from worker's productivity. It literally means workers are paying for everything profits & their own wages.
TrashPosterInTheDark
replied 2324d
Right. I fail to see any problem here.
replied 2323d
There is very obvious exploitation, to you and many others (mostly in Capitalist brainwashed society) there is no problem here & according to you capitalist is "helping" people. FUBAR
replied 2323d
Clearly you fail to see that its the workers that are creating wealth for the capitalist and not at all that capitalist is helping the workers. Capitalist is a leach sucking out wealth
TrashPosterInTheDark
replied 2323d
So the capitalist taking financial risks and putting efforts at starting a new business should not get rewarded? Am I getting this right?
replied 2322d
Thats is not what I said, some FINITE reward is fine & deserved, but Capitalism creates "rewards" that never end becoming INFINITE (thanks to inheritance).
TrashPosterInTheDark
replied 2322d
Everything at some point comes to an end.
replied 2325d
Company (its owners) are exploiting as owners don't do anything, workers are the ones doing everything. How can you not see this?
John_Doe
replied 2324d
You just admitted it takes skill to run a business. Saying they do nothing is dishonest.
replied 2325d
Owning is exactly DOING NOTHING. Managing is doing something, true & not everyone has skill to do it, but its not worth so much more than rest of worker skills. ALL SKILL IS NEEDED
replied 2325d
There is no such thing as "the company". Its the PEOPLE that own it... Capitalists (Private ownership, that's what Capitalism is based on). Company is just a concept.
replied 2325d
No, people ORGANISE themselves (like a team), share different tasks as people have different skills,things are thought of, produced, distributed, sold etc because of COLLECTIVE EFFORT.
replied 2325d
Alright so how do you distribute resources created between your team? No one wants to do volunteering. Some might not need the resource they created. Some worked more than others.
replied 2325d
Workplace democracy. Humans do this naturally but capitalism/Feudalism/Monarchy/Slavery prevents this. People should use their different abilities, skills etc & co-operate not dictate.
replied 2325d
If you grew it yourself, no one. But you miss a point: that $1000 already existed, you exchanged value (of something you worked for) of useful product (food) for unit of trade.
John_Doe
replied 2325d
Did it exist before the seeds were planted, grown and harvested?
replied 2325d
Did what exist? Wealth? Food? Wealth is something that is useful, and most of it needs work (food grows on it own) but needs work to plant, water, harvest, distribute etc.
John_Doe
replied 2325d
The value. The asset that can be sold. That which you say the rich steal from workers. Did that exist before it is grown?
replied 2325d
All value comes from natural resources and WORK put into it to shape the natural resource into something useful.
John_Doe
replied 2324d
Not answering the question.
replied 2325d
So billion dollars companies managed to exploit workers because they had a useful product. Product they traded for money. Product bought by those exploited workers...
replied 2325d
And who built those products? The owners? the CEOs? Don't be an idiot, this is such simple logic to understand, yet for some reason you either don't see it or play dumb.
replied 2327d
Poor get paid the same but living cost more as there is more $ in hands of few, they drive prices of everything up. You try quit when you live paycheck to paycheck, see how you go.
replied 2328d
Unless you inflate it to high hell to pay back unpayable debts and pump your newly printed cash into the banks.... Whoopsie!!