@SubjectiveReality - "What percentage of earth's population have liberty..." - wherever there is no entity coercing people to perform anything. My guess is less than 2%
You will only feel long-term economic pressure if you have no savings and are unemployable elsewhere. In a free market, "economic pressure" is just the pressure we all feel to survive
Such economic pressure is no more coercion than are the hunger pangs that remind you you need to eat. Coercion requires intent, so a natural system cannot be coercive.
There's going to be an enevitable tipping point where enough people who have no moral issue with being coercive gang up on the productive ppl and use the lazy as their shock troops.
This is true. There are producers and plunderers and the producers need to organize in order to defend themselves from plunder. Taxation is a euphemism for plunder generally
"people who have no moral issue with being coercive" usually gang up on each other, eventually. Such behavior creates feedback loops best observed from a safe distance.
Point I'm trying to get at is that anarchy ignores Pareto as much as Marxism. Sometimes an evil person wins the IQ lottery and individuals alone are not powerful enough to fight them.
Truth. Evil -often- wins the IQ lottery. Mensa as an organization demonstrates this beyond question. Mensa is mostly joined by people who want to inflict rules upon others.
Yeah I think the ivory tower is a dangerous place. Smart ppl are always faced with the temptation to get their ego stroked. This gives even smarter and eviler ppl an attack vector.
The key is not power to fight. The solution consists of too many variables for here. But one specific clue is to examine innate weaknesses of Evil. Censorship, Hatred. Hierarchy
Like for sure it's true that all monopolies eventually fail. But what if the current matrix I'm trapped in isn't doomed for another 300 years. It doesn't help me move forward in life.
First, no matter how strong the matrix or prison cell, you are only truly trapped if you believe you are. Use the trivium and quadrivium, the liberal arts, to find your way out
IDK, I'm tempted to think Adam Smith was wrong. Or at least not 100% right. That's why they say "the animating contest of Liberty". You don't get out the matrix if you don't want out.
CONGRATULATIONS ! ! You just won the prize ! This is the hyper-secret formula for ensuring Sanctuaries are not over-run by those who should live elsewhere.
This sounds like you'll need some enforcement mechanism, because you're never going to have a world where a certain percentage of the population isn't intending to be coercive.
Truth, partial Mechanisms exist to deter "those who are coercive" which require no "enforcement". Enforcement == coercion and devolves. Alternatives to coercion are numerous.
Interesting assertion. If there is design in nature, then is there not intent and therefore the designer(s) coercive? If you mean natural law, void of design, then I agree.
This is my main qualm with the ancaps - they think that freedom necessarily brings out the best in people. Go live on the south side of Chicago! There are no cops! Ancap paradise!
Well, tell all the people from there that've been imprisoned that there are no cops. If it was entirely Ancap, then people could organize, arm & protect themselves. Law prevents that.
As soon as the wall is finished the Chicago murder rate will drop by 3/4+ because the drug lords will have no use for the gangs. Hopefully Rahm will be in chains by then too.
For sure this is true. Actually I'm from the burbs so I'm pretty familiar with the situation. Chicago is a massive crossroads but they need a police free zone to do all the trafficking
What is missing there and in your own understanding of liberty is that natural law exists and consequences follow breaking natural law. So in order to achieve harmony with liberty:duty
You work in a mutually voluntary transaction between you and the company based upon some kind of agreement. If you disagree then you alone are coercing yourself unless you quit.
This is true, and if one lived their life so that they can quit any job at any time they will not so easily give in. This the crux of how debt is modern slavery.
Ok what if there's no other choice for work because of some natural event like a famine? Do I have the freedom to kill my neighbor and steal his food to feed my kid in that situation?
Sadly there is no quick and easy solution to being in a bad situation except to plan avoiding such circumstances. Killing your neighbor or stealing his food is Harm.
This is the crux I'm getting at. You don't get freedom without a bill of rights and a nation(a group with a shared Grand Narrative) willing to defend those rights no matter what.
Should mention that the rights in America (life, liberty, pursuit of happiness) are (supposed to be) natural rights, "not dependent on the laws any particular culture or government”
I dont have an answer, but 1 on 1 with people they don't like others in their business so I try to get them to see the harm they cause when they are in another person’s business.
This is also why multiculturalism doesn't work, because it implies multiple social contracts thatmay contradict each other (and do) grossly. The result: chaos. The dark side uses this
You'll never get a completely homogeneous group. Even in Japan there's actually three native minority groups. The trick is having a shared meta narrative so all can feel at home.
Agreed, The best example i have experienced and seen was in Malaysia (Male, Chinese & Indians), i remember there was alot of national holidays when i used to work there :)
True, nor is one desirable. Multiculturalism, however, does not promote a single base layer social contract, but instead promotes parralel social contracts. I.e. sharia courts in eu
Yes, a social contract like a constitution or ten commandments etc sets the norms which are easy for people to agree as permissible behavior. It establishes the fundamental culture.
Point out they ways people are in each other's business. e.g. marriage, abortion, environmentalism, drug use, sin taxes (even for sugar now!) not to mention regulations for businesses.
I get hung up on the Grand Narrative thing too. Think I get what you're saying. ancaps depends on everyone respecting NAP like ancoms depend on everyone respecting class consciousness?
Yes exactly. If a big enough percentage of the population is immoral your "freedom" is going to be a walled compound with you working your ass off to grow your own food. Freedom baby!
Many great divisions between people have been reduced. It used to be people mostly interacted with others of the same religion, class, race, and government.
But without government these mostly useless, intrusive regulations are costly to implement. Who wants to actually pay (their own money) to prevent others from petty action?
You have to consider the costs of regulating this morality. Current government makes it easy to be in another persons business. Many regulations created (eg pronouns).
Defending Freedom and Liberty are not necessary. All that is required is for those who would Harm no others to exile. Places they abandon will self-destruct as evil Harms its own.
The One Law defines your Freedom to do anything you wish that Harms no one else. Rights are illusions hand-wavers want you to believe they are giving you something special.
Yes... But... The classic definition of a "right" is exactly that it does no harm to others versus a "wrong" that does harm others. "Right and wrong" is a non-coincidental term
Until you grow competent enough to persuade her to alter whatever it is you object about her you are just a cancer that escaped her body. (Someone please call pest control)
Haha, I should have used a humor emoji. But seriously, until a chiid reaches a level of competency they differ not one whit from a pet puppy. They need to be raised to learn.
So should people be free to breed/sell their children like dogs then? Seems like a perfectly selfish and profitable enterprise to me. How does anarchy prevent this?
This legislation path is a slippery slope of control. Every1 agrees, harming/ selling your child is wrong. (If everyone agrees why do you need the law?)
A law is just a written contract between a group of people to act in a certain way. If it's not written down the accused use technicalities in their defense.
A law is a written contract kind of but it is applied to people who may not agree with it. Typically contracts are between consenting, signing parties. agree needs to be written.
Right, if you didn't sign it how can you be a party to the contract? "Consent of the governed" is key and silence is acquiesence. "A claim stands as truth until rebutted" then
the "burden of proof lay with the claimant". Legislation only applies if you silently agree that it does or somehow sign onto it and subject yourself to it voluntarily.
Read up on maxims of law, hierarchy of law, common law, courts of record and the 7th amendment codifying (for the government) the common law as the highest law of the land
And if they go unchallenged the laws stand. Sounds like opt in vs opt out. & seems to set up an eternal struggle between busy bodies & people who want to work in peace/be left alone.
That's right, that is essentially how it works and there are massive advertising campaigns to encourage people to not consider that their consent is optional, though that's not all bad
So, I agree with didn’t sign not party to contract & consent is key. Less understanding of silence is acquiescence. Makes it seem like gov can make as many laws as they want.
A law is a written contract kind of but it is applied to people who may not agree with it. Typically contracts are between consenting, signing parties.
We do evil not from confusion, but for what it gets us. Scientists studying consciousness agree pigs are conscious and killing conscious beings is wrong, but they are not all vegan.
I should note that I really like all you Ancaps. Very friendly and reasonable bunch who can take a good elbow in the ribs. Can not say that for any Marxist I've ever engaged with.
I get along well with fiscal conservatives, libertarians, minarchists, through to ancap. I think being fiscally conservative can severely limit gov size & reduce its impact elsewhere.
I've stopped subscribing to any ist, ism, arch or 'tarian label. Things I'm sure of - No man is an island. It's better to have loved and lost than never loved at all. Death, and taxes.
Prevent? Are you so arrogant that you believe you can prevent all harm in the world? Bad things happen. That said, voluntary culture can do better than legislation. Teach the effects
Obviously not. Do police stop/prevent human trafficking and murder from the likes of MS13? Obviously not. You are operating from a place of fear. Fear is the #1 tool of the dark side
When you deny your dark side you only give it more power. If you don't acknowledge and take charge of your capacity for malevolence it will take control of you in dire situations.
Seems to me that once it got to be a crucial issue the people elected a good cop. And if you want to talk Star Wars - the reason the PT Jedi failed was they couldn't admit their fears.
Not. As a parent you owe your child a debt repayable. Many cultures view this backward: they think the child owes the parent - which defies any kind of logic whatsoever.
You're speaking religious language right now. I want game theory. I value a society where as few children as humanly possible are abused. If that means police, then so be it. Worth it.
as much as people don’t want to admit there is a price for everything even human life. Exaggeration but if we spend $1B on enforcement and only save 1 kid that isn’t worth it.
The issue I'm getting at is that when every individual has to act as their own(and their own kids) security force, that's more expensive than pooling your resources for some police!
If it is more efficient to pool resources (as I think it is too) then people in the market will pool resources (like most all companies that exists now).
I'm all about having local police only. A city can be a good little unit if the people care about the upkeep. If police are beyond 1 degree of separation you start getting problems.
you're willing to make the sacrifice of freedom but you're also forcing everyone else to make that sacrifice. there is also an opportunity cost associated this enforcement.
Not religious at all. You physically choose to make a baby. The baby will eventually die. If you did not create a baby that person would not die. Thus, you have committed murder
Because you have murdered someone in the future, you now owe them more than you can ever repay. Any failure to protect them at least until they are competent is Harm.
I'm not talking about ME, I talking about the billion odd children alive on the planet right now. I'm absolutely willing to "Harm" people who intend to "Harm" kids.
People ?!? they are not people They exist outside The One Law and can only be regarded as you might regard crocodiles, sharks, tigers or other carnivorous beasts. 'Open Season'.
I play this game when chatting with Utopians where I look for the point when I start to feel that, if they were put in charge, I'd probably be killed for thought crime. This is it.
Identifying and exiling animals who prey upon or abuse children is a ranching activity, and requires no special government goon-squads. It could be a good business opportunity.
This does happen entirely too often. It fairly results in both accuser and accused needing to justify themselves to their neighbors. This justifies an open court to appeal to.
@dash you should read up on English common law. Imperfect, but a self-organizing and determmining justice system that seeks truth through wisdomof the crowd over time
There is a BIG difference between governing and neighbors. Government is all about organizing thugs+taxes. An open court a neigborhood might hold to examine an exile event.
Immoral people will be selected against and will thus have a more difficult time surviving, but they cannot be totally eliminated (like the flu virus).
I agree that bad people use big government to leech off society. What I don't agree with is that eliminating "the government" is necessarily going to make those people unsuccessful.
Most all ppl think murder is immoral. Some ppl think eating animals is immoral. So, who you consider ‘those people’ & who some1 else considers ‘those people’ will be different.
The market brings true change because the change is voluntarily chosen. If your morality is a thing held in high regard by the majority it will be selected for in the market.
This is the absolute crux of what I'm getting at here. Ancaps project their morality onto the world as much as Marxists. What if the Holy Market selects for slavery, rape and murder?
I should mention that if you peek under the hood of the USA/UK you'll definitely find a few of these skeletons. I'd agree that these are the people holding us back though.
I don't trust any reported rates. I'm talking about white collar crime and things like congresspeople using regulations to affect markets and take trades, regulatory capture, etc.
but even reported corruption (defined however but applied universally) is less in economically freer countries. I wouldn’t take the lack of a stat as proof freer have more corruption
"More" is your problematic word here. Are talking number of people? Raw dollar amount. $$ per capita? % of GDP? As usual, you can extract any Narrative you wish.
either way, a lack of a stat doesnt prove more or less (defined as raw dollars, per cap, or %GDP) the only stats we have (which is universally applied) show econ freedom = less corrupt
i mean sure, if you have different definitions for crimes (like insider trading by congress) the 'official numbers' wont report that. i agree that should be a crime too.
was talking about crime stats. insider trading was an example. meant if congress says insider trading is illegal they should also be bound by that. i'd rather insider trading be legal.
Insider trading is fine. I'm talking about funding color revolutions just to start a civil war and tank a currency that you shorted, starting wars to keep oil prices up, etc.
Much like after the Cold War the more capitalist US was left as a superpower after the fall of the USSR. Both existed for a while & people in the USSR didnt have to become capitalist
guess you could call it an emergent property. dont think it has to be forced on people though. just after the dust settles that's what will be left so might as well move toward it now
Again, it's a chicken and egg thing. I think you don't sustain a free society(nation?) unless the members of that society are committed to preserving the values/morals that created it.
process of coalescence, but there may come a time when the cost of attacking a truly free economic community is too great for the state. Perhaps BCH will play a role in the above. /2
The USA did pretty well by having a very limited mandate for the feds(border defense and basic NAP enforcement) and state legislatures. Had a target on it's back from the word go.
Exactly. The big problem with ancap is that, while theoretically decentralized, there's no meta-security mechanism. Once you get something good going you will def get attacked.
What you need is a nucleus of individuals around which such a society and culture can grow and which cannot be easily disrupted. Historically, the state always acts to disrupt this /1
I see a lot of ancaps using "the state" as an ill-defined slur, much like you'll get a Marxist screaming about "capitalists" but then it always ends up being the same gangster assholes
The state is pretty well defined, no? OTOH, socialists always cherry pick what they mean by "capitalist" which always means some billionaire govt. crony, not a wealthy dentist, etc.
then there is no reason to think that all behavior will follow selfish lines. Also, the anarcho part of anarchocapitalism means lack of political rulers, not a lack of rules./2
If you're playing a game and only 75% of the players are following the rules you either need a referee or you need to admit that those aren't the rules of the game.
Does 100% of the population follow the rules now? Ancap society does not demand 100% adherence to the NAP, just a critical mass (perhaps). People play by rules that benefit them.
Ancap society is basically just bitcoin protocol but in real life. If more people are not playing by the rules, the market price for defense and security will be higher (more demand)
I have a theory that the original US constitution was a PoW system that got wrecked by authoritarians under the guise of more "democracy" which allowed them to rig the rule making.
Similar to block size controls - the funny thing is that commies beg for this kind of crap. And they think majority rules (aka democracy / soft forks) are great! Keeps everyone in line
Precisely. And then once you have a mafia organisation (aka government) that issues threats of violence in order to implement price controls... market distortions happen. (1/2)
So the ancap faith is that the NAP necessarily creates a positive feedback loop if only "rulers" are eliminated? This sounds childishly simplistic and naive to me.
Been doing some research into history of Anarchy. Looks like Anarchists consider Anarcho-Capitalism to be an Oxymoron as the Capitalist is ruler in biz. structure. Anarchy b socialist.
I mean I understand the sentiment completely. I've been a punk rocker for 20 years now. It's just that an(no)archy(heirarchy) in a universe with competition is complete fantasy imo.
Altruism is found in nature, particularly among genetically related individuals. Culture is at least as important to humans as genetics, so if your neighbor holds similar values /1
Oh and your neighbor aren't enough to defend a border. And if you're forced to choose between your neighbor's or your kid's life, who's do you choose? This is anarchy after all.
This is a chicken and egg question here. Do societies that value a certain set of human rights succeed? Or is it that if a society is successful they come to value human rights?
So, I think more individualistic societies will over time out compete more collectivist ones, ending at what I consider the most individualistic, ancap.
If allowed, they will. You will always get power hungry people making crazy promises to the poor to get votes. The system then starts to break down. Bastiat's solution is best.
The trick seems to be, finding the sweet spot where you have individual autonomy within concentric circles of family, neighborhood, city, nation, world. All in proper balance.
The reality seems more like a cycle. As we get more individualistic we wake up and become more successful, then we get arrogant and lazy, then fall asleep back into collective tribes.
It’s like each country tends towards collectivism during its life, but when it hits one of these sharp turning points a new level of individualism is reached.
I think on the whole the trend is towards more individualism. Especially if you look from Ancient societies where everyone interacted with the same race, religion, government, class.
Yeah there’s definitely a cycle. Was talking with kokansei here somewhere about how states just grow until there is some sharp turning point back to a smaller state.
So I think the fallacy is when you assume that individualism will reach some kind of escape velocity. This sounds a lot like the Soviet Man. It's just another "substitute for Jesus".
Most people when they taste freedom (which I think more individualism would be more freedom) they crave more of it. (E.g. people liberated from oppressive regimes)
Agree it sounds like Soviet man. Not sure it needs to reach an escape velocity and then everything is a peaceful utopia, likely more of a gradual trend toward freedom and individualism
Also you're using the word society but presumably advocating for zero meta-organization within a certain geography. But what happens when the neighboring country expands it's border?
just using society to talk about the group of people. not zero meta-organization (business organization I think is fine). know someone else mentioned how the name could be oxymoronic.
Right! "Group of people" implies there's some value that's joining them together. I don't see how a company and a government are different(unless you do some 1984 newspeak gymnastics).
I mean the typical cited difference is just that you can leave a company. I’d be fine with government if taxes were like kickstarter (pay for what/how much you want), lol.
So yeah, if you're paying some tax and getting very little back for it, fight to make it more fair! But also, don't let it ruin your day, and getting thrown in jail is not worth it.
it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury. After that, the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits with the result the democracy collapses
Hard to say fight to make it fair with 1 vote vs 350,000,000. “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the majority discovers
I mean the bottom of this conversation is ultimately "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's". If you think you'll ever get out of paying tribute to someone or something you're delusional.
There's gotta be some check on it. I think in an anarchy situation companies can become territorial mafias very easily. So no, you can't necessarily just quit.
1) people are generally what you and I would consider immoral (they support murder/rape/slavery) but also 2) an immoral society can out compete moral societies
In my experience and historical research - self determination is not the human default. In situations where there is no king, groups will appoint a leader from among them.
Self-determination being “free choice of one's own acts without external compulsion?” Or right to choose “their sovereignty and international political status”
There's enough percentage of people who would sacrifice the long term for short term comforts, especially in an anarchy situation, that you'd spend a lot of energy on self defense.
The current system incentivizes this by caring for these people, so we’re left with more of these people. In anarchy they would starve & be selected against.
Nope. The system incentivizes people to go on and stay on wellfare. They vote to get more free shit from there. If you have no wellfare people will find jobs, they wont starve.
sorry, meant the current system incentivizes people to sacrifice long term for short term. I agree with you. really meant they'd either get a job & change behavior or starve.
Hard to account for upbringing of people in all these places. If you wanted to prove such a relationship you'd have to see if it holds for kids of races raised in foreign places.
Not sure I agree here. With an anarchy there wouldn’t be a safety net. People would be responsible for their own actions and the consequences. E.g. buying a tv not food.
You're contradicting yourself here. I thought that most people were moral but here you're saying that enacting or abolishing a law doesn't make people moral(true!).
So the contradiction is that you're arguing that laws are a top-down imposition but here you're saying Jim Crow laws were bottom up.(imo this is historically innacurate)
I'll defer to Dinesh D'Souza on this one. It's a deep deep rabbit hole of rewritten, hidden and spun history. Start with the shock doc "Hillary's America"
Sorry! >_< I mean to say that you've indicated(I think?)that the NAP is independent of laws but then abolishing slavery(was that adding or removing a law?) didn't help to free anyone.
By having a government with laws you’ve not changes those feelings you’ve just painted over them and pretend they don’t exist (which leads to resentment not acceptance).
Exactly. I think you do have more freedom if a sovereign nation legislates and enforces(via individual self-defence rights and small local police forces) the non aggression principle.
This is why I love the show Stranger Things - it's the story of a local cop trying to protect his community(his loved ones) from feds who violate the NAP against sovereign citizens.
I am saying that the market currently does select for these things, but not via the buyer, and not at the point of sale: there're aren't many things more opaque than a supply chain.
Right! What is the *reason* the market currently selects for these things? You have to qualify the statement "freedom begets freedom" for ancap to work. I don't think it's true.
anarchy doesn't 'prevent' this, but you cannot legislate morality. People will follow the law but will resent the lawmakers &, in this case, the child they’re ‘burdened’ with.
I'm fairly certain Q is a 98% truth 2% lies honeypot my brother. Liberty is YOUR responsibility, not a magic fairy in D.C.. I'm worried Q will keep ppl from VOTING cuz #trusttheplan
The problem with this statement is that it makes "liberty" into something you either have or don't. It's ridiculous once you say it out loud. There will always be winners and losers.
Correct. Liberty is indeed something you either have or don't. When you are in a security queue your Liberty is Zero under those who can extend that absence of Liberty indefinitely
So you're saying it's binary from moment to moment? I don't quite understand. And like what if sociopaths have liberty, doesn't that put other people's liberty at risk?
Sociopaths: giving Sociopaths (+everyone) the tool to judge actions means they can know good from evil. This is impossible with any other legal code anywhere on this planet.
Sociopaths: are not specifically evil. They simply do not perceive the Harm they do. This is one specific reason for The One Law - ability to judge using logic.
The problem here is that ALL human beings are blind, stupid hypocrites! And the ones who don't think they are even more so. You can't possibly account for every variable.
There is only -one- variable at any given moment: Did you harm someone or not ? - If so, is there any way to restitute to forgiveness (retroactive permission) from the victim ?
More than sometimes - We all do this occasionally. None will ever be omniscient or faultless. The answer is learning to know how to avoid Harm and to restitute. And to forgive...
No If omniscient I would never test my case in an uncensorably indelible public blockchain for all posterity to gloat over. I would know all the answers and never need to reply.
I am 100% not afraid to be wrong, to make mistakes, or be ridiculed. I am willing to revise what I write when I recognize through argument or reasoning that I have erred.
Haha good, me too! Otherwise I wouldn't bother engaging with you. My point is that a society that values forgiveness is going to do better than one based on strict "eye for an eye"
Forgiveness is both under-appreciated and misunderstood. We need to get this cog re-engaged in public discourse. Punishment achieves almost nothing restitution can.
Liberty is binary: When you are free to exercise your own volition you have Liberty. In the moment when you surrender your liberty for any reason, others can game you - terminally.