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2410d · Liberty
@SubjectiveReality - "What percentage of earth's population have liberty..." - wherever there is no entity coercing people to perform anything. My guess is less than 2%
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2409d
If I work for a company and they threaten to fire me if I break a legit rule, am I being coerced to act a certain way via economic pressure?
replied 2409d
You will only feel long-term economic pressure if you have no savings and are unemployable elsewhere. In a free market, "economic pressure" is just the pressure we all feel to survive
replied 2409d
Such economic pressure is no more coercion than are the hunger pangs that remind you you need to eat. Coercion requires intent, so a natural system cannot be coercive.
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2409d
There's going to be an enevitable tipping point where enough people who have no moral issue with being coercive gang up on the productive ppl and use the lazy as their shock troops.
SubjectiveReality
replied 2404d
This is true. There are producers and plunderers and the producers need to organize in order to defend themselves from plunder. Taxation is a euphemism for plunder generally
replied 2409d
"people who have no moral issue with being coercive" usually gang up on each other, eventually.
Such behavior creates feedback loops best observed from a safe distance.
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2409d
Point I'm trying to get at is that anarchy ignores Pareto as much as Marxism. Sometimes an evil person wins the IQ lottery and individuals alone are not powerful enough to fight them.
replied 2409d
Truth.
Evil -often- wins the IQ lottery.
Mensa as an organization demonstrates this beyond question.
Mensa is mostly joined by people who want to inflict rules upon others.
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2409d
Yeah I think the ivory tower is a dangerous place. Smart ppl are always faced with the temptation to get their ego stroked. This gives even smarter and eviler ppl an attack vector.
SubjectiveReality
replied 2404d
Fear is likely a significant factor here as well. Intelligence and testosterone (physical prowess) are inverse in an individual, on average.
replied 2409d
The key is not power to fight.
The solution consists of too many variables for here.
But one specific clue is to examine innate weaknesses of Evil.
Censorship, Hatred. Hierarchy
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2409d
Like for sure it's true that all monopolies eventually fail. But what if the current matrix I'm trapped in isn't doomed for another 300 years. It doesn't help me move forward in life.
SubjectiveReality
replied 2404d
First, no matter how strong the matrix or prison cell, you are only truly trapped if you believe you are. Use the trivium and quadrivium, the liberal arts, to find your way out
replied 2398d
Is Ross Ulbricht trapped? Did he not use the trivium and quadrivium hard enough? needed more swish and flick?
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2409d
IDK, I'm tempted to think Adam Smith was wrong. Or at least not 100% right. That's why they say "the animating contest of Liberty". You don't get out the matrix if you don't want out.
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2409d
This I can agree with 100%
replied 2409d
CONGRATULATIONS ! !
You just won the prize !
This is the hyper-secret formula for ensuring Sanctuaries are not over-run by those who should live elsewhere.
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2409d
This sounds like you'll need some enforcement mechanism, because you're never going to have a world where a certain percentage of the population isn't intending to be coercive.
replied 2409d
Truth, partial
Mechanisms exist to deter "those who are coercive" which require no "enforcement".
Enforcement == coercion and devolves.
Alternatives to coercion are numerous.
SubjectiveReality
replied 2404d
Interesting assertion. If there is design in nature, then is there not intent and therefore the designer(s) coercive? If you mean natural law, void of design, then I agree.
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2409d
This is my main qualm with the ancaps - they think that freedom necessarily brings out the best in people. Go live on the south side of Chicago! There are no cops! Ancap paradise!
replied 2409d
Well, tell all the people from there that've been imprisoned that there are no cops. If it was entirely Ancap, then people could organize, arm & protect themselves. Law prevents that.
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2409d
As soon as the wall is finished the Chicago murder rate will drop by 3/4+ because the drug lords will have no use for the gangs. Hopefully Rahm will be in chains by then too.
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2409d
For sure this is true. Actually I'm from the burbs so I'm pretty familiar with the situation. Chicago is a massive crossroads but they need a police free zone to do all the trafficking
SubjectiveReality
replied 2404d
What is missing there and in your own understanding of liberty is that natural law exists and consequences follow breaking natural law. So in order to achieve harmony with liberty:duty
replied 2409d
You work in a mutually voluntary transaction between you and the company based upon some kind of agreement.
If you disagree then you alone are coercing yourself unless you quit.
SubjectiveReality
replied 2404d
This is true, and if one lived their life so that they can quit any job at any time they will not so easily give in. This the crux of how debt is modern slavery.
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2409d
Ok what if there's no other choice for work because of some natural event like a famine? Do I have the freedom to kill my neighbor and steal his food to feed my kid in that situation?
replied 2409d
Sadly there is no quick and easy solution to being in a bad situation except to plan avoiding such circumstances.
Killing your neighbor or stealing his food is Harm.
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2409d
This is the crux I'm getting at. You don't get freedom without a bill of rights and a nation(a group with a shared Grand Narrative) willing to defend those rights no matter what.
replied 2409d
Should mention that the rights in America (life, liberty, pursuit of happiness) are (supposed to be) natural rights, "not dependent on the laws any particular culture or government”
replied 2409d
I dont have an answer, but 1 on 1 with people they don't like others in their business so I try to get them to see the harm they cause when they are in another person’s business.
SubjectiveReality
replied 2404d
This is also why multiculturalism doesn't work, because it implies multiple social contracts thatmay contradict each other (and do) grossly. The result: chaos. The dark side uses this
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2404d
You'll never get a completely homogeneous group. Even in Japan there's actually three native minority groups. The trick is having a shared meta narrative so all can feel at home.
replied 2403d
Agreed, The best example i have experienced and seen was in Malaysia (Male, Chinese & Indians), i remember there was alot of national holidays when i used to work there :)
SubjectiveReality
replied 2404d
True, nor is one desirable. Multiculturalism, however, does not promote a single base layer social contract, but instead promotes parralel social contracts. I.e. sharia courts in eu
SubjectiveReality
replied 2404d
Yes, a social contract like a constitution or ten commandments etc sets the norms which are easy for people to agree as permissible behavior. It establishes the fundamental culture.
replied 2409d
In this way I hope to make people more individualistic because I think that would lead to a more free society.
replied 2409d
Why should individuals be so concerned with what other people (who they will likely never interact with) do?
replied 2409d
Point out they ways people are in each other's business. e.g. marriage, abortion, environmentalism, drug use, sin taxes (even for sugar now!) not to mention regulations for businesses.
replied 2409d
I get hung up on the Grand Narrative thing too. Think I get what you're saying. ancaps depends on everyone respecting NAP like ancoms depend on everyone respecting class consciousness?
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2409d
Yes exactly. If a big enough percentage of the population is immoral your "freedom" is going to be a walled compound with you working your ass off to grow your own food. Freedom baby!
replied 2407d
With the set up in the videos I linked, if you want protection from more obscure ‘immoralities’ (like people can’t eat meat) you have to pay for it.
replied 2407d
If you think about all value/energy flows in society, the more you divert to regulating morality the less there is for moving society forward.
replied 2407d
Many great divisions between people have been reduced. It used to be people mostly interacted with others of the same religion, class, race, and government.
replied 2407d
Part of the issue here is assuming everyone will have the same laws. People today interact with different laws (traveling to a different country).
replied 2407d
But without government these mostly useless, intrusive regulations are costly to implement. Who wants to actually pay (their own money) to prevent others from petty action?
replied 2407d
You have to consider the costs of regulating this morality. Current government makes it easy to be in another persons business. Many regulations created (eg pronouns).
replied 2407d
Yes this is true. But morality has different definitions to different people. Vegans might call meat eaters immoral.
replied 2409d
Defending Freedom and Liberty are not necessary.
All that is required is for those who would Harm no others to exile.
Places they abandon will self-destruct as evil Harms its own.
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2409d
I'm sorry but don't believe in this religion. You're welcome to keep proselytizing in my direction though. It's a very interesting thought experiment.
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2409d
**I don't believe**
replied 2409d
The One Law defines your Freedom to do anything you wish that Harms no one else.
Rights are illusions hand-wavers want you to believe they are giving you something special.
SubjectiveReality
replied 2404d
Yes... But... The classic definition of a "right" is exactly that it does no harm to others versus a "wrong" that does harm others. "Right and wrong" is a non-coincidental term
SubjectiveReality
replied 2404d
You always have that option, regardless of circumstances. What you are not free from are the consequences of murdering someone.
replied 2403d
that you recognize the rule as legit, and moreover, that you recognize yourself as bound by rules, means you are not being coerced.
replied 2409d
So happy you made a thread!
Reload
replied 2409d
I would say yes if you disagree with their rule.
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2409d
Like take it down to the bone - do you have a mom? If she's "coercing"(good luck defining it) you in some way should you like, what, kill her?
Reload
replied 2409d
Your mom could be said to be caring for you until the age your able to understand the difference between what is caring and what is coercion.
replied 2409d
Until you grow competent enough to persuade her to alter whatever it is you object about her you are just a cancer that escaped her body.
(Someone please call pest control)
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2409d
Ok now you sound like a communist. All the incompetents must die or be enslaved in favor of a New Man made in MY image. Sounds like paradise to me!
replied 2409d
Haha, I should have used a humor emoji.
But seriously, until a chiid reaches a level of competency they differ not one whit from a pet puppy.
They need to be raised to learn.
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2409d
So should people be free to breed/sell their children like dogs then? Seems like a perfectly selfish and profitable enterprise to me. How does anarchy prevent this?
replied 2409d
This legislation path is a slippery slope of control. Every1 agrees, harming/ selling your child is wrong. (If everyone agrees why do you need the law?)
aBitOfCrypto
replied 2407d
Everyone agrees the destruction of the earth is bad, and yet global warming is happening because it's profitable for oil corporations.
replied 2407d
Not to get into a climate change debate but I think the trees would appreciate more CO2 (if thats what you say is destroying the earth).
replied 2407d
If you ask people they will agree in the abstract but if they don’t take actions do they really agree?
replied 2408d
I thought this was so good I reposed on twitter, hope thats ok, tell me if not I will take it down.
replied 2407d
sweet, spread it far! the more people see it the better, its not mine. just found it online. 💽
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2408d
A law is just a written contract between a group of people to act in a certain way. If it's not written down the accused use technicalities in their defense.
SubjectiveReality
replied 2404d
It is not a contract unless signed and explicitly agreed to by all parties. Thus "consent of the governed" is required and "silence is acquiesence".
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2404d
I don't obey laws that I think are stupid.
replied 2403d
Given that it was a stupid law, I've elected not to obey it
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2403d
Another great example is Jordan Peterson vowing to disobey C16 in Canada.
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2403d
Civil disobedience forces a debate in an official public forum(court, the press). Rosa Parks is a great example.
replied 2407d
Basically private security/insurance companies work it out between themselves and customers choose companies they like.
replied 2407d
Video about how laws could be decided without government.
Longer explanation
replied 2407d
A law is a written contract kind of but it is applied to people who may not agree with it. Typically contracts are between consenting, signing parties. agree needs to be written.
SubjectiveReality
replied 2404d
Right, if you didn't sign it how can you be a party to the contract? "Consent of the governed" is key and silence is acquiesence. "A claim stands as truth until rebutted" then
replied 2398d
social contract, lol
SubjectiveReality
replied 2404d
the "burden of proof lay with the claimant". Legislation only applies if you silently agree that it does or somehow sign onto it and subject yourself to it voluntarily.
replied 2403d
not sure if you're saying this is how it is now or how you want it to be?
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2403d
I think I believe the "rider and elephant" hypothesis.
SubjectiveReality
replied 2403d
Read up on maxims of law, hierarchy of law, common law, courts of record and the 7th amendment codifying (for the government) the common law as the highest law of the land
minkaminka
replied 2403d
Theres a good book called Power by Dennis Toombs. A chapter about governance is in there, that has a good scope.
SubjectiveReality
replied 2403d
Thanks- I will check it out
replied 2403d
I need the list of books you suggested me, can you make a memo for that ? :)
replied 2403d
And if they go unchallenged the laws stand. Sounds like opt in vs opt out. & seems to set up an eternal struggle between busy bodies & people who want to work in peace/be left alone.
SubjectiveReality
replied 2403d
That's right, that is essentially how it works and there are massive advertising campaigns to encourage people to not consider that their consent is optional, though that's not all bad
Unknown
replied 2402d
by consent is optional, do you mean something other than voting?
replied 2403d
So, I agree with didn’t sign not party to contract & consent is key. Less understanding of silence is acquiescence. Makes it seem like gov can make as many laws as they want.
replied 2407d
A law is a written contract kind of but it is applied to people who may not agree with it. Typically contracts are between consenting, signing parties.
Jay Barney
replied 2409d
We do evil not from confusion, but for what it gets us. Scientists studying consciousness agree pigs are conscious and killing conscious beings is wrong, but they are not all vegan.
replied 2409d
killing conscious ain't wrong my friend. unless you are a quaker
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2409d
We were talking about anarchy. I'm trying to wrap my head around it.
replied 2407d
Fair enough. Appreciate everyone being calm & inquisitive.
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2403d
I should note that I really like all you Ancaps. Very friendly and reasonable bunch who can take a good elbow in the ribs. Can not say that for any Marxist I've ever engaged with.
replied 2403d
I get along well with fiscal conservatives, libertarians, minarchists, through to ancap. I think being fiscally conservative can severely limit gov size & reduce its impact elsewhere.
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2403d
I've stopped subscribing to any ist, ism, arch or 'tarian label. Things I'm sure of - No man is an island. It's better to have loved and lost than never loved at all. Death, and taxes.
SubjectiveReality
replied 2404d
Prevent? Are you so arrogant that you believe you can prevent all harm in the world? Bad things happen. That said, voluntary culture can do better than legislation. Teach the effects
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2404d
You gonna teach some MS13 gang bosses that human trafficking and murder is bad for your health and spiritual wellbeing? 😂😂
SubjectiveReality
replied 2403d
Obviously not. Do police stop/prevent human trafficking and murder from the likes of MS13? Obviously not. You are operating from a place of fear. Fear is the #1 tool of the dark side
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2403d
Fear, hate, anger, suffering - those are enevitable and useful emotions. But only when you're prepared and have a plan for how to act when they arise.
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2403d
When you deny your dark side you only give it more power. If you don't acknowledge and take charge of your capacity for malevolence it will take control of you in dire situations.
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2403d
Seems to me that once it got to be a crucial issue the people elected a good cop. And if you want to talk Star Wars - the reason the PT Jedi failed was they couldn't admit their fears.
replied 2409d
Not.
As a parent you owe your child a debt repayable.
Many cultures view this backward:
they think the child owes the parent - which defies any kind of logic whatsoever.
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2409d
You're speaking religious language right now. I want game theory. I value a society where as few children as humanly possible are abused. If that means police, then so be it. Worth it.
replied 2409d
as much as people don’t want to admit there is a price for everything even human life. Exaggeration but if we spend $1B on enforcement and only save 1 kid that isn’t worth it.
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2409d
The issue I'm getting at is that when every individual has to act as their own(and their own kids) security force, that's more expensive than pooling your resources for some police!
replied 2407d
Even more efficient than being forced to pool your resources is to choose to pool your resources.
replied 2407d
There are examples of private police forces protecting the homeless or people who can’t pay.
replied 2407d
Just like you don’t have to grow your own food or make your own car or make your own computer. You could pay for varying levels of defense.
replied 2407d
If it is more efficient to pool resources (as I think it is too) then people in the market will pool resources (like most all companies that exists now).
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2403d
I'm all about having local police only. A city can be a good little unit if the people care about the upkeep. If police are beyond 1 degree of separation you start getting problems.
replied 2409d
you're willing to make the sacrifice of freedom but you're also forcing everyone else to make that sacrifice. there is also an opportunity cost associated this enforcement.
replied 2409d
Not religious at all.
You physically choose to make a baby.
The baby will eventually die.
If you did not create a baby that person would not die.
Thus, you have committed murder
replied 2409d
Because you have murdered someone in the future,
you now owe them more than you can ever repay.
Any failure to protect them at least until they are competent is Harm.
replied 2409d
Failing this quite simple logic means
that if you abuse or otherwise Harm you own children you are no better than an animal.
(more to come...)
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2409d
I'm not talking about ME, I talking about the billion odd children alive on the planet right now. I'm absolutely willing to "Harm" people who intend to "Harm" kids.
replied 2409d
People ?!?
they are not people
They exist outside The One Law and can only be regarded as you might regard crocodiles, sharks, tigers or other carnivorous beasts.
'Open Season'.
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2409d
I play this game when chatting with Utopians where I look for the point when I start to feel that, if they were put in charge, I'd probably be killed for thought crime. This is it.
replied 2409d
Identifying and exiling animals who prey upon or abuse children is a ranching activity,
and requires no special government goon-squads.
It could be a good business opportunity.
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2409d
What if they get falsely accused?
replied 2409d
This does happen entirely too often.
It fairly results in both accuser and accused needing to justify themselves to their neighbors.
This justifies an open court to appeal to.
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2409d
UH OHHHH, sounds like you got a government!
Unknown
replied 2404d
@dash you should read up on English common law. Imperfect, but a self-organizing and determmining justice system that seeks truth through wisdomof the crowd over time
Unknown
replied 2409d
There is a BIG difference between governing and neighbors.
Government is all about organizing thugs+taxes.
An open court a neigborhood might hold to examine an exile event.
replied 2409d
Immoral people will be selected against and will thus have a more difficult time surviving, but they cannot be totally eliminated (like the flu virus).
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2409d
I agree that bad people use big government to leech off society. What I don't agree with is that eliminating "the government" is necessarily going to make those people unsuccessful.
replied 2407d
This means yes, ‘those people’ will likely get by in society on some level. Just like to a vegan, meat eaters will be getting by.
replied 2407d
Most all ppl think murder is immoral. Some ppl think eating animals is immoral. So, who you consider ‘those people’ & who some1 else considers ‘those people’ will be different.
replied 2407d
You’re right, it depends on the average morality of the population. Morality is defined in different ways by different people.
replied 2409d
The market brings true change because the change is voluntarily chosen. If your morality is a thing held in high regard by the majority it will be selected for in the market.
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2409d
This is the absolute crux of what I'm getting at here. Ancaps project their morality onto the world as much as Marxists. What if the Holy Market selects for slavery, rape and murder?
replied 2407d
I do not see countries full of rape, murder, and corruption out competing more civil societies
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2403d
I should mention that if you peek under the hood of the USA/UK you'll definitely find a few of these skeletons. I'd agree that these are the people holding us back though.
replied 2403d
true, they're definitely there just to a lesser degree. know corruption is negatively correlated with economic freedom. havent checked crime rates
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2403d
I don't trust any reported rates. I'm talking about white collar crime and things like congresspeople using regulations to affect markets and take trades, regulatory capture, etc.
replied 2403d
but even reported corruption (defined however but applied universally) is less in economically freer countries. I wouldn’t take the lack of a stat as proof freer have more corruption
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2403d
"More" is your problematic word here. Are talking number of people? Raw dollar amount. $$ per capita? % of GDP? As usual, you can extract any Narrative you wish.
replied 2403d
either way, a lack of a stat doesnt prove more or less (defined as raw dollars, per cap, or %GDP) the only stats we have (which is universally applied) show econ freedom = less corrupt
Unknown
replied 2403d
If you're using raw dollar amounts the largest economies are kings. Remember the 2008 housing crisis? What was that, 10 trillion dollhairs??
replied 2403d
i mean sure, if you have different definitions for crimes (like insider trading by congress) the 'official numbers' wont report that. i agree that should be a crime too.
minkaminka
replied 2403d
All people who are friendly have the propensity for insider trader. Just a phone call with a friend.
replied 2402d
was talking about crime stats. insider trading was an example. meant if congress says insider trading is illegal they should also be bound by that. i'd rather insider trading be legal.
Unknown
replied 2402d
Insider trading is fine. I'm talking about funding color revolutions just to start a civil war and tank a currency that you shorted, starting wars to keep oil prices up, etc.
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2407d
It's like ancaps think that valuing your neighbor's life as much as your own or your kid's(or even their next meal) is some emergent human property.
replied 2405d
Now instead of more capitalist it is more free/more individualist.
replied 2405d
But at the end of the day those that were more capitalist were left with greater wealth (greater influence in the world/greater economic fitness).
replied 2405d
Much like after the Cold War the more capitalist US was left as a superpower after the fall of the USSR. Both existed for a while & people in the USSR didnt have to become capitalist
replied 2405d
guess you could call it an emergent property. dont think it has to be forced on people though. just after the dust settles that's what will be left so might as well move toward it now
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2404d
Again, it's a chicken and egg thing. I think you don't sustain a free society(nation?) unless the members of that society are committed to preserving the values/morals that created it.
replied 2404d
process of coalescence, but there may come a time when the cost of attacking a truly free economic community is too great for the state. Perhaps BCH will play a role in the above. /2
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2404d
The USA did pretty well by having a very limited mandate for the feds(border defense and basic NAP enforcement) and state legislatures. Had a target on it's back from the word go.
replied 2404d
true, this is the problem minarchists have, how do you keep the state at this level when everyone sees it as an easy way to 'solve their problems?'
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2404d
Exactly. The big problem with ancap is that, while theoretically decentralized, there's no meta-security mechanism. Once you get something good going you will def get attacked.
replied 2404d
What you need is a nucleus of individuals around which such a society and culture can grow and which cannot be easily disrupted. Historically, the state always acts to disrupt this /1
Dogeman
replied 2404d
History is not a good indicator of the future when exponentials are involved.
replied 2404d
kowloon walled city had a good run. heard people were cramming in there despite the conditions.
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2404d
I see a lot of ancaps using "the state" as an ill-defined slur, much like you'll get a Marxist screaming about "capitalists" but then it always ends up being the same gangster assholes
replied 2404d
The state is pretty well defined, no? OTOH, socialists always cherry pick what they mean by "capitalist" which always means some billionaire govt. crony, not a wealthy dentist, etc.
Unknown
replied 2404d
yeah, state is monopoly of violence in a geographic region right?
replied 2407d
then there is no reason to think that all behavior will follow selfish lines. Also, the anarcho part of anarchocapitalism means lack of political rulers, not a lack of rules./2
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2407d
If you're playing a game and only 75% of the players are following the rules you either need a referee or you need to admit that those aren't the rules of the game.
replied 2407d
Does 100% of the population follow the rules now? Ancap society does not demand 100% adherence to the NAP, just a critical mass (perhaps). People play by rules that benefit them.
replied 2406d
Ancap society is basically just bitcoin protocol but in real life. If more people are not playing by the rules, the market price for defense and security will be higher (more demand)
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2406d
I have a theory that the original US constitution was a PoW system that got wrecked by authoritarians under the guise of more "democracy" which allowed them to rig the rule making.
Unknown
replied 2406d
Similar to block size controls - the funny thing is that commies beg for this kind of crap. And they think majority rules (aka democracy / soft forks) are great! Keeps everyone in line
Unknown
replied 2406d
Precisely. And then once you have a mafia organisation (aka government) that issues threats of violence in order to implement price controls... market distortions happen. (1/2)
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2406d
Sound familiar?
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2407d
So the ancap faith is that the NAP necessarily creates a positive feedback loop if only "rulers" are eliminated? This sounds childishly simplistic and naive to me.
Reload
replied 2407d
Been doing some research into history of Anarchy. Looks like Anarchists consider Anarcho-Capitalism to be an Oxymoron as the Capitalist is ruler in biz. structure. Anarchy b socialist.
Unknown
replied 2407d
I mean I understand the sentiment completely. I've been a punk rocker for 20 years now. It's just that an(no)archy(heirarchy) in a universe with competition is complete fantasy imo.
replied 2407d
Altruism is found in nature, particularly among genetically related individuals. Culture is at least as important to humans as genetics, so if your neighbor holds similar values /1
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2407d
Oh and your neighbor aren't enough to defend a border. And if you're forced to choose between your neighbor's or your kid's life, who's do you choose? This is anarchy after all.
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2407d
***You and your neighbor***
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2407d
This is a chicken and egg question here. Do societies that value a certain set of human rights succeed? Or is it that if a society is successful they come to value human rights?
replied 2406d
So, I think more individualistic societies will over time out compete more collectivist ones, ending at what I consider the most individualistic, ancap.
John_Doe
replied 2406d
If allowed, they will. You will always get power hungry people making crazy promises to the poor to get votes. The system then starts to break down. Bastiat's solution is best.
replied 2405d
can you elaborate on Bastiat's solution or provide a link?
John_Doe
replied 2405d
https://fee.org/articles/the-bastiat-solution/
He sums it up nicely. If you haven't read The Law. It is well worth it.
Unknown
replied 2405d
thank you. good read. agree. havent read the law but i've read a lot of exerts. might have it. its on my list to read.
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2406d
The trick seems to be, finding the sweet spot where you have individual autonomy within concentric circles of family, neighborhood, city, nation, world. All in proper balance.
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2406d
The reality seems more like a cycle. As we get more individualistic we wake up and become more successful, then we get arrogant and lazy, then fall asleep back into collective tribes.
replied 2405d
It’s like each country tends towards collectivism during its life, but when it hits one of these sharp turning points a new level of individualism is reached.
replied 2405d
Through the 1900s where people started moving around more. Interacting with & living with those of different race, religion, and class.
replied 2405d
I think on the whole the trend is towards more individualism. Especially if you look from Ancient societies where everyone interacted with the same race, religion, government, class.
replied 2405d
Yeah there’s definitely a cycle. Was talking with kokansei here somewhere about how states just grow until there is some sharp turning point back to a smaller state.
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2406d
So I think the fallacy is when you assume that individualism will reach some kind of escape velocity. This sounds a lot like the Soviet Man. It's just another "substitute for Jesus".
replied 2405d
Most people when they taste freedom (which I think more individualism would be more freedom) they crave more of it. (E.g. people liberated from oppressive regimes)
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2403d
And then if you're born free and you're spoiled and ungrateful you start to think communism would be cool cuz VIVA LA REVOLUCION
Unknown
replied 2403d
unfortunately seems to be the trend :( https://i.imgur.com/lg37qLU.jpg
replied 2405d
Agree it sounds like Soviet man. Not sure it needs to reach an escape velocity and then everything is a peaceful utopia, likely more of a gradual trend toward freedom and individualism
replied 2406d
There is a causal effect of individualism in society on economic growth. https://eml.berkeley.edu/~ygorodni/GR_PNAS.pdf
replied 2406d
Individualism seems to be a big part of being an ancap.
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2407d
Also you're using the word society but presumably advocating for zero meta-organization within a certain geography. But what happens when the neighboring country expands it's border?
replied 2406d
not really familiar with these scenarios. some discussion of this on r/goldandblack https://www.reddit.com/r/GoldandBlack/comments/6acvzm/minimum_deterrence_as_a_vulnerability_in_the/
replied 2406d
just using society to talk about the group of people. not zero meta-organization (business organization I think is fine). know someone else mentioned how the name could be oxymoronic.
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2406d
Right! "Group of people" implies there's some value that's joining them together. I don't see how a company and a government are different(unless you do some 1984 newspeak gymnastics).
replied 2405d
these are good questions, thanks! having to spend a lot of time thinking about them. letting the question roll around my head for a few days.
replied 2405d
I mean the typical cited difference is just that you can leave a company. I’d be fine with government if taxes were like kickstarter (pay for what/how much you want), lol.
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2404d
So yeah, if you're paying some tax and getting very little back for it, fight to make it more fair! But also, don't let it ruin your day, and getting thrown in jail is not worth it.
Unknown
replied 2404d
because of the loose fiscal policy ensuing, always to be followed by a dictatorship, then a monarchy.”
Unknown
replied 2404d
it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury. After that, the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits with the result the democracy collapses
Unknown
replied 2404d
Hard to say fight to make it fair with 1 vote vs 350,000,000. “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the majority discovers
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2404d
I mean the bottom of this conversation is ultimately "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's". If you think you'll ever get out of paying tribute to someone or something you're delusional.
Unknown
replied 2404d
Sure, agree. & I’d be happy with minarchism (like early US) where gov spending to GDP was 3%. Now we’re forced to pay for tons of crap.
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2404d
There's gotta be some check on it. I think in an anarchy situation companies can become territorial mafias very easily. So no, you can't necessarily just quit.
Unknown
replied 2404d
dont agree here, but somewhere earlier said there i dont have data for this, just talking about what we thing human nature is. ehh.
replied 2405d
I think the shared value is individualism.
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2407d
Saudi Arabia, China, Soviet Russia arguably did great as a collective. The metric I'm concerned about is individual freedom within that society.
replied 2407d
1) people are generally what you and I would consider immoral (they support murder/rape/slavery) but also 2) an immoral society can out compete moral societies
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2407d
In my experience and historical research - self determination is not the human default. In situations where there is no king, groups will appoint a leader from among them.
replied 2406d
Self-determination being “free choice of one's own acts without external compulsion?” Or right to choose “their sovereignty and international political status”
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2407d
There's enough percentage of people who would sacrifice the long term for short term comforts, especially in an anarchy situation, that you'd spend a lot of energy on self defense.
replied 2406d
I mean, certainly you could have a situation like some failed countries where everything has been stolen.
replied 2406d
The current system incentivizes this by caring for these people, so we’re left with more of these people. In anarchy they would starve & be selected against.
John_Doe
replied 2406d
Nope. The system incentivizes people to go on and stay on wellfare. They vote to get more free shit from there. If you have no wellfare people will find jobs, they wont starve.
replied 2406d
sorry, meant the current system incentivizes people to sacrifice long term for short term. I agree with you. really meant they'd either get a job & change behavior or starve.
replied 2406d
But I think there is an IQ issue which limits abstract thinking (ie planning for the future & what-if scenarios eg what if I need food in the future).
replied 2406d
Hard to account for upbringing of people in all these places. If you wanted to prove such a relationship you'd have to see if it holds for kids of races raised in foreign places.
replied 2406d
including Somalia to preempt the typical, "if you like ancap so much move to Somalia" argument
replied 2406d
agreed. didnt mean to debate racial differences and IQ, just the best graph I had to show IQ differences across countries.
replied 2406d
Not sure I agree here. With an anarchy there wouldn’t be a safety net. People would be responsible for their own actions and the consequences. E.g. buying a tv not food.
replied 2407d
Further, all societies are in competition with each other. So to support your position you would have to believe
replied 2407d
See USA after Civil War, it wasn’t kumbaya, laws against the now free slaves were enacted (Jim Crow, segregation).
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2407d
You're contradicting yourself here. I thought that most people were moral but here you're saying that enacting or abolishing a law doesn't make people moral(true!).
replied 2406d
I'm not sure I see the contradiction, could you change the wording a bit or explain it a bit differently?
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2406d
So the contradiction is that you're arguing that laws are a top-down imposition but here you're saying Jim Crow laws were bottom up.(imo this is historically innacurate)
replied 2405d
So, whites just came up with more creative ways (like segregation) to keep blacks from advancing (economically or socially)
replied 2405d
I mean it did technically free them which is a step in the right direction but it didn’t change the feelings whites had towards blacks.
replied 2405d
oh ok, thanks. I think you’re right Jim Crow was top-down?
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2404d
I'll defer to Dinesh D'Souza on this one. It's a deep deep rabbit hole of rewritten, hidden and spun history. Start with the shock doc "Hillary's America"
Unknown
replied 2404d
thanks
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2406d
Sorry! >_< I mean to say that you've indicated(I think?)that the NAP is independent of laws but then abolishing slavery(was that adding or removing a law?) didn't help to free anyone.
replied 2405d
My point is legislating morality creates a sharp divide in an otherwise smooth transition.
replied 2405d
Change does happen, I think people are becoming more accepting of others as the world becomes more connected.
replied 2407d
By having a government with laws you’ve not changes those feelings you’ve just painted over them and pretend they don’t exist (which leads to resentment not acceptance).
replied 2407d
By true change I mean it’s genuine. If the ‘holy market’ selects for rape that is what the people actually want.
Simon Van Gelder
replied 2409d
Then Walmart would make a lot more sense...
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2409d
Exactly. I think you do have more freedom if a sovereign nation legislates and enforces(via individual self-defence rights and small local police forces) the non aggression principle.
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2409d
This is why I love the show Stranger Things - it's the story of a local cop trying to protect his community(his loved ones) from feds who violate the NAP against sovereign citizens.
Simon Van Gelder
replied 2409d
I am saying that the market currently does select for these things, but not via the buyer, and not at the point of sale: there're aren't many things more opaque than a supply chain.
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2409d
Right! What is the *reason* the market currently selects for these things? You have to qualify the statement "freedom begets freedom" for ancap to work. I don't think it's true.
replied 2409d
anarchy doesn't 'prevent' this, but you cannot legislate morality. People will follow the law but will resent the lawmakers &, in this case, the child they’re ‘burdened’ with.
Spendl A Bit
replied 2409d
This shit! This is what they're trying to normalize. Fucking pedophiles. #thesepeoplearesick #QAnon #WWG1WWGA
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2409d
I'm fairly certain Q is a 98% truth 2% lies honeypot my brother. Liberty is YOUR responsibility, not a magic fairy in D.C.. I'm worried Q will keep ppl from VOTING cuz #trusttheplan
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2409d
The problem with this statement is that it makes "liberty" into something you either have or don't. It's ridiculous once you say it out loud. There will always be winners and losers.
replied 2409d
Correct.
Liberty is indeed something you either have or don't.
When you are in a security queue your Liberty is Zero under those who can extend that absence of Liberty indefinitely
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2409d
So you're saying it's binary from moment to moment? I don't quite understand. And like what if sociopaths have liberty, doesn't that put other people's liberty at risk?
replied 2409d
Sociopaths:
giving Sociopaths (+everyone) the tool to judge actions means they can know good from evil.
This is impossible with any other legal code anywhere on this planet.
replied 2409d
Sociopaths:
are not specifically evil.
They simply do not perceive the Harm they do.
This is one specific reason for The One Law - ability to judge using logic.
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2409d
The problem here is that ALL human beings are blind, stupid hypocrites! And the ones who don't think they are even more so. You can't possibly account for every variable.
replied 2409d
There is only -one- variable at any given moment:
Did you harm someone or not ?
-
If so, is there any way to restitute to forgiveness (retroactive permission) from the victim ?
minkaminka
replied 2403d
But sometimes you harm inadvertently without knowing. How to explain such phenomenon?
replied 2403d
More than sometimes - We all do this occasionally.
None will ever be omniscient or faultless.
The answer is learning to know how to avoid Harm and to restitute.
And to forgive...
replied 2403d
The real questions are being asked.
replied 2403d
As best we can to answer what grows from such a binary simplicity to encompass so much.
https://memo.cash/post/51b2b4ab96130b75da58dd6dba39fb52a88db9ffe089d8daa3074c62f356a251
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2409d
lol good luck!! You're not omniscient my friend. It's time you admit it.
replied 2409d
No
If omniscient I would never test my case in an uncensorably indelible public blockchain for all posterity to gloat over.
I would know all the answers and never need to reply.
replied 2409d
I am 100% not afraid to be wrong,
to make mistakes, or be ridiculed.
I am willing to revise what I write when I recognize through argument or reasoning that I have erred.
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2409d
Haha good, me too! Otherwise I wouldn't bother engaging with you. My point is that a society that values forgiveness is going to do better than one based on strict "eye for an eye"
replied 2409d
Forgiveness is both under-appreciated and misunderstood.
We need to get this cog re-engaged in public discourse.
Punishment achieves almost nothing restitution can.
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2409d
But what if they're an "animal"? Where's the line between animal and person? Do animals become people when the harmed individual forgives them?
replied 2409d
Liberty is binary:
When you are free to exercise your own volition you have Liberty.
In the moment when you surrender your liberty for any reason, others can game you - terminally.