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replied 2174d
Sk8eM dUb
"Yeah, my doublespend detector just lit up!, gonna chase that guy and his half empty coffee and get him to pay up!" -No One, Ever.
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2174d
Require a reasonable miner fee to accept zero conf and they'll have less than a second to try their double spend.
replied 2174d
You mean like the 1sat/byte everyone here keeps touting? Or are you advocating we pay 10+ sat/byte to uphold the zero-conf narrative?
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2174d
Seriously, describe to me how you'd steal a coffee with a doublespend and why it'd be worth it to even try. Spell out the economics and odds of success.
replied 2173d
"But for 0-conf here's an explanation of how a double spend can be done: https://jasonc.me/blog/bitcoin-bip-133-double-spends-bch"
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2173d
Except WHOOPS now there's a mug shot of the dude stealing and an immutable record of his theft AND the miner who aided him. Pool operators start bouncing that guys blocks for sport??
replied 2173d
exactly.
Reputation will start to have weight moreso than ever when tokens come in too.
This whole double spend argument is a distraction.
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2173d
Like say I bought a $100 microwave with 0-conf and got lucky enough to make it out of the store and double spend the $100 - the store will then send my mugshot to the local police.
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2173d
I mean you can get it to confirm on the blockchain. That's not really what I'm getting at. I'm wondering how someone would steal merchandise of sufficient value to justify the effort.
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2173d
If the merchant requires a good miner fee to make sure the txn propagates quickly and gets "first seen" there's minuscule chance you'll get lucky unless you collude with a miner.
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@memo was citing an article about the "how" today, let me see.
replied 2174d
Same way they're doing it now. Best case it works and I get free coffee. Worst case it doesn't. If you had a 10%+ chance of getting free stuff wouldn't you take it?
replied 2173d
What kind nd of free stuff? If I didn’t like it I wouldn’t take it. Now if it’s from Tiffany Chanel Dior I would take it in a heartbeat. Unless it was stolen or fake of course
replied 2174d
10+ sat uphold. That is a great incentive for miners to move faster then the next guy. 1 sat equates same, faster miners move faster transactions and more money they acquire.
Sk8eM dUb
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Enough that it's above the threshold most miners have set for their mempool yeah. 1sat/byte is enough for now but it'll be a moving target as activity ramps up.
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The only way that it will become a arms race is if the blocks starts to get filled, and the plan is to raise the block size if and when that happens.
Sk8eM dUb
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Right! The way to make 0-conf safe is raise the block size! Miners automatically find the fastest way to propagate txns because they're keeping an eagle eye out for incoming blocks.
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Ok let me state first that coffee is an important nutrient.

Second, if I was a barrista/cashier, and the double spend alert came up in 5 seconds, I could hold back that coffee cup.
replied 2173d
Could you hold back that cup of coffee for 1,148 seconds?

homopit
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That double spend was actually broadcast BEFORE. Because of the low fee, most nodes and miners did not see it. Until some miner that accepted low fee tx, minted it.
EnigoMontoya
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Output addresses are both the same and the payee got more. How is this a double spend?
homopit
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But some miner got his low fee transaction, because of the inconsistent relay policies among nodes. That miner rejected the second transaction, found the block, and mined the first tx.
homopit
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In this case, the user sent low fee transaction first, found out it does not propagate well, almost all his peers reject it. He then sent same coins again, with higher fee.
EnigoMontoya
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So the first tx that was confirmed was the first sent which is labeled the double? This 1 is confusing thx for the explanation.
homopit
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Yes. It only appears it came after, because no one saw it, until it was in a block (the time of that transaction is the same as of the block it was minted into).
homopit
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This is a 'proof of concept'. Addresses could be different.
homopit
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That's why it is of utmost importance that most of the network agrees on what the minimum relay fees are. Otherwise, double spends like above are possible.
replied 2172d
..., then it should wait longer, even 1000 seconds. If that is not possible, he/she can ask for another method of payment. Also, don't forget, all offline shops have several cams.
replied 2172d
Maybe. Now there should be software that can discern the chances of double spend. The lower the fee, the higher the chances of ds? If barista gets a signal that ds is likely, ...
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Go get him 😂