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2273d · Guess the movie
they're pretty with no substance. eg last Jedi, Jupiter ascending, ghost in the shell 2017, Valerian.
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2273d
Last Jedi and Ghost in the Shell both were ridiculously substantial. Fight me.
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GitS had none of the philosophy that drove the 1995 film & SAC series. Just a collection of live action reshoots of the anime.
Sk8eM dUb
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I actually prefer the new Ghost in the Shell to Ex Machina because it's far more realistic. I think the malicious singularity will spawn from a collectivist group of nihilist humans.
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Why do you think malicious singularity will come from a collectivist group?
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2272d
The big mother AI from iRobot is a great example. It'll be programmed to protect us from ourselves and justify killing people for the greater good saying "My logic is undeniable"
Sk8eM dUb
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you pretty much have to be a nihilist to be a collectivist because you're rejecting your own well being for the self-righteous narcissism that comes from altruism.
replied 2272d
This is an interesting thought. I really liked Ex Machina. Simple plot & setting. clear demonstration of how smart enough AI can’t be contained.
Sk8eM dUb
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Ah yeah see, my interpretation is that Ex Machina is waaay more about the humans than it is the robots. There's a big meta about playing God. What it means to be conscious/unconscious.
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2272d
One definition of consciousness is a being that knows it can be killed(and therefore knows what it's doing when it hurts/kills). So the irony is that the humans in Ex are unconscious.
replied 2271d
hmm. the humans are unconscious... if the robot is conscious? like they dont know they're hurting a conscious thing?
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*not conscious, lol not unconscious.
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2271d
Personally though, I like a story with flawed characters who learn and grow. Ex Machina is amazing and haunting but ultimately it's just an allegory like Animal Farm or Ayn Rand.
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I would expect AI that is much smarter than everyone else to not be as flawed or grow as much as people. & I like stories that paint an ideal, something to strive for (eg Ayn Rand).
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an ideal even at the expense of characters "growing". Think its more interesting to watch the environment/world change around these types of characters/bend to their point of view.
Sk8eM dUb
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So like- the users fall in love with the tech because it gives us something we want; the creators of tech are aware of the dangers but they're too busy playing Gad to take precautions
Sk8eM dUb
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Right right exactly, also they don't even consider that they could be killed.

Also think about each character as a meta-entity in the real world - Google, google's users, google's AI
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If an individual pisses off the world, it probably won't end well for that individual...
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2273d
Also there's a pretty clear anti-war/anti military industrial complex message in the new Ghost which I'm a big fan of. International corporatism vs. sovereign nations. It's soooo good.
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I’ll have to watch GitS 2017 again with these things in mind.
Sk8eM dUb
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Yeah I could see how it'd be really easy to get distracted by just making comparisons to the original anime. I had the same problem with the LOTR movies.
Sk8eM dUb
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As far as philosophy goes - the new one dug into the far more interesting subject of technology driven collectivism vs. individual sovereignty(over things as fundamental as memories)
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Liked the old one because of the question what makes us individuals > our set of memories. I prefer that to anti-war/business or whatever.
Sk8eM dUb
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Uhhhhhh - The buisiness in question is a government contractor who loses his profit if there's no war. So he makes war and kills protestors and whistleblowers.
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yeah, its a preference
Sk8eM dUb
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Sorry, incorrect. They streamlined the story so that all the characters had motivations etc. Just because you have childhood nostalgia about the old one doesn't make it a better film.
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>labeling opinions incorrect. umm… ok.
Sk8eM dUb
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"GitS had none of the philosophy that drove the 1995 film & SAC series." Yes it does. "Just a collection of live action reshoots of the anime." No it's not. Demonstrably.
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its not childhood nostalgia. hadn’t watched it until a few years ago. Side note: what do you think the average age is on memo?
Sk8eM dUb
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30
antimatter5
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Well I'm 11.
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Well if you're 11 and already into Bitcoin Cash then you're way ahead of the game. You most certainly will live long and prosper.
Sk8eM dUb
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Well I'm pretty sure most of us are around 35. Welcome to the old man's pub kid.
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I’m the big 50 🤷‍♀️
Cryptogrampa
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Oh to be 50 again.
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I am (50-35)+4 and I am a TNT gang member
TrashPosterInTheDark
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Yeah I don't beleive you.
antimatter5
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Why should I lie? I found out about Bitcoin just before my 10th birthday, when it was ~1k, my mom said it was "stupid", and I forgot all about it until 15k. Then, I never forgot again.
Sk8eM dUb
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I believe you man. I teach 11 year old kids in Japan, I know how sharp some of you can be. I even have 3rd graders who are completely bilingual and reading at a jr. high level already.
antimatter5
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Thank you.
replied 2271d
yeah, was thinking the range 30-40
replied 2273d
& cheap fan service / iconic shots in both films. & for fun
replied 2273d
lol. last jedi was a cluster fuck of muddled intentions. "let the past die" but oh wait lets go back to that.
Sk8eM dUb
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The snare of Kylo's family ties is the emotional trigger snoke is using to make him fully embrace the dark side - in exactly the same way the emperor traps Anakin and goads Luke.
Sk8eM dUb
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In the plot/Kylo's character development this is a very important moment. Snoke is goading him into lashing out emotionally in the same way the emperor prods at Luke in ROTJ.
Sk8eM dUb
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The other Star Wars characters who wear masks - Queen Amidala, Darth Vader, the clones/stormtroopers, Rey, Finn, Phasma etc.

Very simple symbolism - flew miles above this guys head.
replied 2272d
So unmasking is him becoming an individual (great lets progress this story). oh wait, the rest of the movie is full of backtracking.
Sk8eM dUb
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Remember the line from episode 1 "I'm a person and my name is Anakin"? That's a third wall break as if to say - if you want a simplistic good and evil thing, Star Wars is not for you.
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*4th wall. Star Wars was a simplistic good and evil story for 4-6. Only in 3 did palatine suggest embracing light & dark (& somewhat in 2 questioning why the jedi cant love).
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& kylo suggests getting rid of light & dark then just goes back to dark because reasons.
Sk8eM dUb
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And that's the entire poetic justice of Kylo Ren - the more he tries to kill the past(sever his connections like the Jedi were so fond of) the more it comes back to haunt him.
Sk8eM dUb
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Are you kidding me?! Kylo never ever suggests getting rid of dark and light. He suggest getting rid of the PAST(order). He want's to dive into chaos/nihilism to escape his feelings.
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“It’s about the characters gravitating toward balance by finding a way that’s not full-light or full-dark.”
Sk8eM dUb
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We been talking about "balance"(and what the hell does it mean) since 1999 my man. This is nothing new.
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you mean the jedi have been failing to understand what the definition of balance is since 1999.
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Leaving the Jedi & Sith behind. Every time one side becomes more powerful the other rises to meet it. Kylo & Rey teaming up would merge the light & dark.
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We dont need the ancient texts (great then lets move on) oh wait lets backtrack they were saved so we can build up the jedi yet again.
Sk8eM dUb
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Don't make me start quoting bible verses and teaching you about new covenants and crap
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quote whatever you want. either the books are musty old door stops with no value in this new galaxy or they’re the key to the jedi. muddled story/motivations again.
Sk8eM dUb
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You ever hear the phrase "the dead wood burning off", "get back to basics", "rediscover your roots"? https://imgur.com/a/Vj00lzs
What do you think this is? https://imgur.com/a/ExCnBmu
Sk8eM dUb
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Seriously, this kind of *reinvigoration* of musty old door stops is an archetypal theme in human history. The New Covenant, The Reformation, the Enlightenment, it's death and re-birth.
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Han is dead, good. & now so is Luke. But the new characters are living in the shadows of the old ones because we need fan service & nostalgia.
Sk8eM dUb
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If you're such a nihilist that you need to forget everyone who influenced you to become the way you are, well I guess I'd call you a nihilistic anarchist 😂😂
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We dont care as much about Poe when Han is still around. Same with Rey and Luke.
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I didn’t say we should forget them. I said they should have a limited physical place in the new films. We’ve heard their story, now lets hear Rey’s.
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Yes, death & rebirth is great. Promises to offer new outlook, new ideas. But if there isn’t really a death the rebirth is not strong or powerful. past must actually die to move fwd
Sk8eM dUb
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That's a very Progressive attitude you got there, one I strongly associate with the dark side of the force. Yes the past dies, but you don't just *forget* it.
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It is the difference between burning the ships on the beach & burning a model of the ships.
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Both could be symbols of the commitment of the group to the action they’ve chosen but one is more powerful/meaningful because they physically cannot go back.
replied 2259d
Burning the library is only a powerful symbol of starting anew if the books actually burn. If you take all the books out you’ve just burnt an empty building. Who cares?
Sk8eM dUb
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When Alexandria burned, was that a good thing or a bad thing to lose all that knowledge? You haven't thought this through.
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I thought the knowledge in the jedi wasn’t important? This is the issue. The symbolism (burning the library to start anew) tells us the texts are from another time & that we can move
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on. The actions of the characters (Rey saving the texts) tells us the texts are actually important & the characters should still follow the ways of the ancient past.
Sk8eM dUb
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I'll let JP explain some Star Wars to ya.
Relevant quote - "two different modes of looking at the world are necessary"(dark side/light side)
Sk8eM dUb
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So Rey is the symbolic embodiment of Chaos(just like OT Vader!). But she's the GOOD kind of chaos, the kind that renews life. That's why she 100% MUST be a woman.
Sk8eM dUb
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I mean, it's so frigging blatant. Rey is blasting holes in thousands of years old stone structures. Her connection with the dark side cracks the stone beneath her.
Sk8eM dUb
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Anyways, the TREE represents the crumbling edifice of the dogmatic Jedi Order. The institution that needed to spend some time in reformative Chaos to be reborn. Hence the Phoenix image
Sk8eM dUb
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"Jediism" is clearly an extremely crappy, dogmatic interpretation of the OG Jedi texts that elites use to control ppls minds and monopolize political control - therefore BURN THE TEXTS
Sk8eM dUb
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Dispensationalism is clearly an extremely crappy, dogmatic interpretation of the Bible that elites use to control ppls minds and monopolize political control - therefore BURN THE BIBLE
Sk8eM dUb
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Read that http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article4531.htm
Dispensationalism, based on political/territorial motivation rather than good theology has resulted in 1Kyears of war
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2246d
There's numerous examples in the real world. Dig into Old Testament interpretations that try to justify Zionism(and Christian support of it) and you'll see how archetypal this idea is.
Sk8eM dUb
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It looks like the books represent Order, but if you remember in Ep. 3, Yoda suggests that it's possible to misinterpret prophesy. That's the danger of dogmatic interpretation.
Sk8eM dUb
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Both the books and the tree have orderly and chaotic elements. The books are ancient knowledge that has survived the test of time eg. The Bible, the Odyssey, Shakespeare etc..
Sk8eM dUb
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So you're asking the wrong question about the texts and the tree. You need to interpret those symbols through the lens of chaos and order or you won't understand what happens.
Sk8eM dUb
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If you think this chaos/order thing is trivial in Star Wars, let me prove to you that it's not. It's actually foundational to everything that happens. It's the bedrock of the stories.
Sk8eM dUb
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We're never told exactly what balance means or what the Jedi *think* balance means. They know of no Sith until Darth Maul shows up so it's not necessarily a we win they lose thing.
Sk8eM dUb
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Lets focus on this thread because I think you put your finger right on the most important issue. In the prequels, the Jedi council talks about the force becoming "unbalanced".
replied 2246d
For that analogy to work the knowledge in the books in the library at Alexandria would have to be filled with knowledge that is not relevant anymore.
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2267d
The symbolism is pretty obvious once you see it. There's even the red/green color scheme in there(also very strong in Ep. 1). TLJ is an Xmas movie.

https://imgur.com/gallery/tQm6v
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& side note: this is what I hate about symbolism. “There's red & green here so clearly this movie is for Christmas because colors are the are the same.”
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Saw a red car and green car parked in someone’s driveway. They must love Christmas.
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yes, there are many symbols of ppl choosing own way (unmasking), starting new (fire consuming the jedi library) etc. the issue is the actions of the characters contradict the symbolism
Sk8eM dUb
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Think of those books as "the Old Testament". They're very important and created a long legacy of good, but the Jedi became like Pharisees - all rules and no heart.
replied 2272d
Kylo makes a proposition to let the past die (merge light & dark sides to stop fighting all the time, great) then backtracks & the hunt for rebels is back on. let the past die or not?!
Sk8eM dUb
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Jesus man do you want movies to be interesting or not? Have you ever said to yourself - 'I'm going to start acting this way' and then went and did the exact opposite thing immediately?
replied 2267d
Having characters flip flop around is not interesting. Kylo’s choice wasn’t what cereal to eat in the morning. He murders his master & the top guards (aka treason) then backtracks
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& is commanding the forces again (I guess the First Order doesn’t care about treason?)
Sk8eM dUb
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In a tyranny - might makes right. Painfully obvious, you're being willfully ignorant here.
replied 2259d
nvmd forgot about hux’s outburst.
replied 2272d
When Vader was unmasked he killed the emperor & died, an actual act of individuality. Kylo killed his master, then want back to what he was doing before.
Sk8eM dUb
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Earlier you were arguing that they were too similar, now you want them to be exactly the same?
replied 2267d
If Kylo & rey continued down the individual path of destroying both the dark & light, that would be interesting & inline with unmasking.
replied 2272d
Ok great there are parallels between the old and new films “its like poetry… it rhymes”. All of force awakens was parallel to new hope. (How much parallel is plagiarism?)
Sk8eM dUb
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Watch 4 then 3 - they're mirror images of each other.
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Dont have time to re-watch them but yeah Mr. Plinkett points out many of the similar / mirror elements in his Force Awakens review
Sk8eM dUb
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Kylo Ren breaking his mask symbolizes the theme of telling the old movies to F off - FALSE

UNMASKING is a major theme throughout the saga symbolizing individuality/humanity
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in no particular order: Vice Admiral Gender Studies chastises poe for going on a suicide mission. Then literally goes on a suicide mission. Guess it’s ok when it’s her idea.
Sk8eM dUb
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Also why does she have to make perfect decisions? A major theme of the movie is failure - and every single other main and minor character fails epically in some way.
replied 2267d
She doesn’t have to be perfect. She isnt a good leader though. She’s petulant & needlessly adversarial. She backtracks, & neglects to share plans (demanding blind trust).
Sk8eM dUb
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Yup, that's what makes her interesting. All of what you say is clearly on purpose. Poe is the sympathetic character, he hates her guts and the audience is supposed to too.
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There to be a “pansexual space commander” because why not force in more genders to SW? https://www.pride.com/starwars/2018/1/08/queer-strong-vice-admiral-holdo
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“She’s there, in part, to show us what happens when a new and strange-looking female boss meets a hostile (and still mostly male) workplace.”
Sk8eM dUb
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Go watch the original Star Wars lol
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She was not there to be hated. She’s there to subvert expectations. ie purple haired, pansexual, SJW’s wearing evening gowns make great military leaders too.
Sk8eM dUb
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yes those are all good representations of strong female leaders. But it’s 2018 now & SJWs demand more representation than white women. "go asians" - jj abrams
replied 2246d
The pink haired pansexual vice admiral was shoehorned in for no other reason than to appease SJWs.
replied 2246d
Just like JK Rowling made Dumbledore gay. Not in the books anywhere, has no bearing in the story. Just to appease a vocal minority.
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2259d
She was absolutely not portrayed purely as a sympathetic character. Poe fails for not respecting the line of command, she fails for ignoring the heart of her followers.
replied 2246d
& yet she was loved by audiences who gladly looked over her faults because of “muh womxn leaders”
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replied 2272d
The whole point of the casino scene was to bash business men. Rey is a Mary Sue. Not to mention all the bad jokes, basically lifted from marvel films.
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2272d
Anakin and Luke are also Mary Sues.

Oh and did you miss the part of Star Wars where everything is lifted from other movies?? That's called "homage", your vocab word of the day.
replied 2267d
& star wars ep4 more often called pastiche than homage
replied 2267d
Yeah, thanks we’ve all seen everything is a remix. Why not add an homage to the three stooges & get some slap stick in there (or was that jar jar?). or add a david attenborough voice
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over introducing each new planet? I don’t care if it’s lifted, that makes the new material (ie Star Wars) more accessible. I care that it doesnt fit in a Star Wars movie.
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Really, a poor phone connection joke? Breaks the setting & makes the first order look even more like bumbling buffoons.
Sk8eM dUb
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Phone jokes are classic Star Wars. There were TWO phone jokes in the original.
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We’re not watching the rebels fight for their lives we’re watching a bunch of actors have a laugh about how crazy awesome it is to be in a Star Wars movie.
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the problem is, in the quest to subvert expectations nothing is sincere. everything is ironic. everything is a joke. everything is meta.
Sk8eM dUb
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"the quest to subvert expectations" is a myth. The silliness juxtaposed with despair/turmoil is a device echoed directly from Attack of the Clones.
replied 2246d
And really the issue here is not subverting expectations of plot (though that is still annoying) it’s subverting expectations of basic story flow. The movie includes too much
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inappropriate bathos - continual breaks in mood. Always undercutting any serious situation with a joke. Would have been if Vader made a dad joke after telling Luke he was his father
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It is an ironic detachment. Self-referential jokes made to excuse the fact that the story is poorly written. “Cant think of a better plot point than a giant space laser, again?
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Just make a self-referential joke about it & move on with the rehashed plot.”
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"the object is not to subvert expectation" - Rian Johnson. Maybe his intention was not to subvert expectations but the result did
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Yeah but not as bad of a Mary Sue as rey. Their skills build from what they did as children. Anakin podraced, he flew a ship & accidentally destroyed the trade federation craft in ep1.
Sk8eM dUb
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Should I start listing situations where budding Jedi can suddenly and inexplicably use a new force power to help them escape their captors/pursuers?
antimatter5
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Luke wasn't exactly a budding Jedi, but he was the first user of Force projection to help the Resistance narrowly escape the First Order.
Sk8eM dUb
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We're talking about how Rey's force powers supposedly are inconsistently good compared to young Luke and kid Anakin.
Sk8eM dUb
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There's an Imp. flight sim inside Rey's walker. She mastered every dogfight and emergency flight situation. Did Luke do that? No, he only ever flew the SW equivalent of a dirt bike.
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Forgot about this. Not keen to watch these movies more than once…
Sk8eM dUb
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Also, as a capitalist you should know that in a competition for survival situation you become stronger, not weaker. Her life situation is what trained her instincts.
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true. But there are usually missteps, work put in. Progress. A montage.
Sk8eM dUb
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There is a montage, it's the second sequence of The Force Awakens.
Sk8eM dUb
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Sk8eM dUb
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You don't know anything about her history. You'll find out in 9 that her parents were from a culture of warriors(probably Mandalorian) and trained her to fight since she could stand up
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Maybe we will find this out (are you just speculating here?) but what we know now is they were nobodies.
Sk8eM dUb
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So there's going to be some royal lineage very very deep in her past just like Mary's lineage tied back to king David. I should probably write a damn article on this crap.
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You should write it here, time stamp it. I dont know what symbolism about Rey you’re referring to.
Sk8eM dUb
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I am speculating but they've set up the symbolism so strongly they almost have to. She's clearly a Mary analogue just like Anakin was a riff on Christ symbolism.
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Yes, Anakin was the result of a virgin birth & he tore down existing dogmatic political structures, but he really wasn’t a savior to the masses.
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actually was trained. Ep2 lost to dooku after being security the entire movie. Finally ep3 defeats dooku & is strong. Rey, a junk scavenger, can fly the falcon on sight, resists mind
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reading by kylo (who has been trained) & holds her own against him in a lightsaber duel, after she first held a lightsaber 45 minutes earlier.
Sk8eM dUb
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No it wasn't - it's literally to show Rose and Finn that evil and greed are enevitable so they need to set their priorities on loved ones instead of trying to save the entire galaxy.
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Why not make them corrupt politicians? Hollywood in general slights business. Its a trope at this point.
Sk8eM dUb
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What did you think of Ready Player One?!? I think it's actually an amazing exploration of the question that this video is asking and also "what does it mean to be a good businessman?"
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Havent seen Super 8, The Iron Giant, or Ready Player One. :( behind in movies, books, games, everything, lol. Really want to see RPO though.
Sk8eM dUb
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Great video BTW, thanks for sharing it. I think it's 90% true for sure. What about Iron Man and Batman? Also think of the feds in JJ's movie Super 8 or The Iron Giant.
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Batman is an example of a good bizman. Though he isnt good because he’s a businessman, that is just the reason he has a lot of money. He’s good because the work he does as batman
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idk maybe thats good enough.
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Ironman is kind of good but he has this guild of making weapons. Also in civil war he wants supervison of the UN. This seems out of character & I would think he’d want max indiv.
Sk8eM dUb
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Reminds me of a recently diseased senator who was heavily involved with Raytheon etc. https://observer.com/2017/06/democrats-trump-administration-arms-sale-saudi-arabia-yemen/
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Haha yeah. Working all angles for more power.
Sk8eM dUb
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OH YEAH(red pill alert) - The war profiteers on Canto Bight were so morally bankrupt that they had no qualms with enslaving children for their own entertainment.
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yeah, whole complaint here is just that its businessmen... again...
Sk8eM dUb
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What do you think of John McCain?
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mccain:
Sk8eM dUb
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Right, you completely missed the part when they find out that THE REBELS, the "good guys" were also involved with those people. The master codebreaker is clearly a good guy, he's there
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the actually master codebreaker or the one they end up with?
Sk8eM dUb
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Yeah, the actual codebreaker who they failed to hook up with was clearly a good guy and 100% immersed in the Canto Bight culture. Don't forget that Maz Kanata is a capitalist too.
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we barely see him but yes he looked like a good guy (& wearing white - purity). Maz is cool.
Sk8eM dUb
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If you take everything into account that is said on the subject in TLJ the message is clearly saying - "it's complicated" not "it's just business"
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Yes, Finn seeing the ship owner’s past deals tells the audience “it’s complicated” but showing the rich people as not caring tells the audience “it’s just business”
Sk8eM dUb
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And I don't think it was showing the rich people as not caring, I think it was showing them as blissfully ignorant (just as you may be if you we're to visit Las Vegas on vacation.
Sk8eM dUb
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So, as per the Shirkey principle: If your problem is national defense and the solution is my weapons business, I'll make sure you always have a problem with foreign invaders.
Sk8eM dUb
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I think this is one big thing that the Ancap types get wrong - capitalism doesn't make society moral. If there's a demand for weapons, someone will fill the demand.
replied 2246d
Yes, I understand capitalism will only provide what people want (good or bad). The issue is the representation is nearly always negative.
replied 2259d
yeah, this part I liked. "The introduction of the code breaker was a positive" mirrors kylo's light & Rey's dark sides developing. ie neither is wholly good or bad.
replied 2267d
The introduction of the code breaker was a positive (“good is a point of view”). Ep8 looked to be set up to tackle this question then reasserts who is good & who is bad.
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2267d
And the DO tackle that question pretty hardcore when Luke is talking about all the ways the supposedly good Jedi were bad. The question isn't who is good, it's "what actions are good?"
replied 2246d
They tackle half. When Luke talks about the bad things the jedi have done. To tackle the question we have to know how the Sith/First Order (or just Kylo) are doing good.
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2267d
Star Wars NEVER asserts that "good is a point of view" - It asserts, over and over, that "good is a point of view" is the mentality of evil/selfish/nihilistic people.
replied 2246d
Meant more that in the original trilogy people were clearly good or bad (except Lando, vader killing palatine). Prequel, who is good & who is bad is less clear, like you say action
replied 2246d
start to be judged. Now in the post-quels (? Lol) most everyone has good and bad parts. this is the question of the new films.
replied 2246d
many of the characters still think rebles=good; first order=bad.
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2273d
Wow, DUMB video. I'll take his idiotic points one by one *head desk*

Seriously people know absolutely nothing about symbolism even though it's hammering you over the head repeatedly.
replied 2272d
Thanks for at least watching it and responding. Could do without the ad hominem though.
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2272d
I didn't say you were dumb. I said the video was dumb. I didn't even say the guy making the video was dumb. I won't even say you're dumb for not being able to identify ad hominem 😉
replied 2267d
>the video is dumb >but the guy making it isn’t. sure, whatever. we’ll just call them insults. Still doesn’t help your case.
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2267d
He's probably a very smart guy, as you are. But your interpretation of this movie is flawed in a lot of demonstrable ways. Everybody makes dumb arguments based on feelings.
replied 2259d
… still with the insults.