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Sk8eM dUb
replied 2273d
The other Star Wars characters who wear masks - Queen Amidala, Darth Vader, the clones/stormtroopers, Rey, Finn, Phasma etc.

Very simple symbolism - flew miles above this guys head.
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So unmasking is him becoming an individual (great lets progress this story). oh wait, the rest of the movie is full of backtracking.
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2272d
Remember the line from episode 1 "I'm a person and my name is Anakin"? That's a third wall break as if to say - if you want a simplistic good and evil thing, Star Wars is not for you.
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*4th wall. Star Wars was a simplistic good and evil story for 4-6. Only in 3 did palatine suggest embracing light & dark (& somewhat in 2 questioning why the jedi cant love).
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& kylo suggests getting rid of light & dark then just goes back to dark because reasons.
Sk8eM dUb
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And that's the entire poetic justice of Kylo Ren - the more he tries to kill the past(sever his connections like the Jedi were so fond of) the more it comes back to haunt him.
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2267d
Are you kidding me?! Kylo never ever suggests getting rid of dark and light. He suggest getting rid of the PAST(order). He want's to dive into chaos/nihilism to escape his feelings.
replied 2259d
“It’s about the characters gravitating toward balance by finding a way that’s not full-light or full-dark.”
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2259d
We been talking about "balance"(and what the hell does it mean) since 1999 my man. This is nothing new.
replied 2246d
you mean the jedi have been failing to understand what the definition of balance is since 1999.
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Leaving the Jedi & Sith behind. Every time one side becomes more powerful the other rises to meet it. Kylo & Rey teaming up would merge the light & dark.
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We dont need the ancient texts (great then lets move on) oh wait lets backtrack they were saved so we can build up the jedi yet again.
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2272d
Don't make me start quoting bible verses and teaching you about new covenants and crap
replied 2267d
quote whatever you want. either the books are musty old door stops with no value in this new galaxy or they’re the key to the jedi. muddled story/motivations again.
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2267d
You ever hear the phrase "the dead wood burning off", "get back to basics", "rediscover your roots"? https://imgur.com/a/Vj00lzs
What do you think this is? https://imgur.com/a/ExCnBmu
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2267d
Seriously, this kind of *reinvigoration* of musty old door stops is an archetypal theme in human history. The New Covenant, The Reformation, the Enlightenment, it's death and re-birth.
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Han is dead, good. & now so is Luke. But the new characters are living in the shadows of the old ones because we need fan service & nostalgia.
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2259d
If you're such a nihilist that you need to forget everyone who influenced you to become the way you are, well I guess I'd call you a nihilistic anarchist 😂😂
replied 2246d
We dont care as much about Poe when Han is still around. Same with Rey and Luke.
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I didn’t say we should forget them. I said they should have a limited physical place in the new films. We’ve heard their story, now lets hear Rey’s.
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Yes, death & rebirth is great. Promises to offer new outlook, new ideas. But if there isn’t really a death the rebirth is not strong or powerful. past must actually die to move fwd
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2259d
That's a very Progressive attitude you got there, one I strongly associate with the dark side of the force. Yes the past dies, but you don't just *forget* it.
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It is the difference between burning the ships on the beach & burning a model of the ships.
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Both could be symbols of the commitment of the group to the action they’ve chosen but one is more powerful/meaningful because they physically cannot go back.
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Burning the library is only a powerful symbol of starting anew if the books actually burn. If you take all the books out you’ve just burnt an empty building. Who cares?
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2259d
When Alexandria burned, was that a good thing or a bad thing to lose all that knowledge? You haven't thought this through.
replied 2246d
I thought the knowledge in the jedi wasn’t important? This is the issue. The symbolism (burning the library to start anew) tells us the texts are from another time & that we can move
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on. The actions of the characters (Rey saving the texts) tells us the texts are actually important & the characters should still follow the ways of the ancient past.
Sk8eM dUb
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I'll let JP explain some Star Wars to ya.
Relevant quote - "two different modes of looking at the world are necessary"(dark side/light side)
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2246d
So Rey is the symbolic embodiment of Chaos(just like OT Vader!). But she's the GOOD kind of chaos, the kind that renews life. That's why she 100% MUST be a woman.
Sk8eM dUb
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I mean, it's so frigging blatant. Rey is blasting holes in thousands of years old stone structures. Her connection with the dark side cracks the stone beneath her.
Sk8eM dUb
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Anyways, the TREE represents the crumbling edifice of the dogmatic Jedi Order. The institution that needed to spend some time in reformative Chaos to be reborn. Hence the Phoenix image
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2246d
"Jediism" is clearly an extremely crappy, dogmatic interpretation of the OG Jedi texts that elites use to control ppls minds and monopolize political control - therefore BURN THE TEXTS
Sk8eM dUb
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Dispensationalism is clearly an extremely crappy, dogmatic interpretation of the Bible that elites use to control ppls minds and monopolize political control - therefore BURN THE BIBLE
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2246d
Read that http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article4531.htm
Dispensationalism, based on political/territorial motivation rather than good theology has resulted in 1Kyears of war
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2246d
There's numerous examples in the real world. Dig into Old Testament interpretations that try to justify Zionism(and Christian support of it) and you'll see how archetypal this idea is.
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2246d
It looks like the books represent Order, but if you remember in Ep. 3, Yoda suggests that it's possible to misinterpret prophesy. That's the danger of dogmatic interpretation.
Sk8eM dUb
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Both the books and the tree have orderly and chaotic elements. The books are ancient knowledge that has survived the test of time eg. The Bible, the Odyssey, Shakespeare etc..
Sk8eM dUb
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So you're asking the wrong question about the texts and the tree. You need to interpret those symbols through the lens of chaos and order or you won't understand what happens.
Sk8eM dUb
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If you think this chaos/order thing is trivial in Star Wars, let me prove to you that it's not. It's actually foundational to everything that happens. It's the bedrock of the stories.
Sk8eM dUb
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We're never told exactly what balance means or what the Jedi *think* balance means. They know of no Sith until Darth Maul shows up so it's not necessarily a we win they lose thing.
Sk8eM dUb
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Lets focus on this thread because I think you put your finger right on the most important issue. In the prequels, the Jedi council talks about the force becoming "unbalanced".
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For that analogy to work the knowledge in the books in the library at Alexandria would have to be filled with knowledge that is not relevant anymore.
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2267d
The symbolism is pretty obvious once you see it. There's even the red/green color scheme in there(also very strong in Ep. 1). TLJ is an Xmas movie.

https://imgur.com/gallery/tQm6v
replied 2259d
& side note: this is what I hate about symbolism. “There's red & green here so clearly this movie is for Christmas because colors are the are the same.”
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Saw a red car and green car parked in someone’s driveway. They must love Christmas.
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yes, there are many symbols of ppl choosing own way (unmasking), starting new (fire consuming the jedi library) etc. the issue is the actions of the characters contradict the symbolism
Sk8eM dUb
replied 2267d
Think of those books as "the Old Testament". They're very important and created a long legacy of good, but the Jedi became like Pharisees - all rules and no heart.
replied 2272d
Kylo makes a proposition to let the past die (merge light & dark sides to stop fighting all the time, great) then backtracks & the hunt for rebels is back on. let the past die or not?!
Sk8eM dUb
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Jesus man do you want movies to be interesting or not? Have you ever said to yourself - 'I'm going to start acting this way' and then went and did the exact opposite thing immediately?
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Having characters flip flop around is not interesting. Kylo’s choice wasn’t what cereal to eat in the morning. He murders his master & the top guards (aka treason) then backtracks
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& is commanding the forces again (I guess the First Order doesn’t care about treason?)
Sk8eM dUb
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In a tyranny - might makes right. Painfully obvious, you're being willfully ignorant here.
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nvmd forgot about hux’s outburst.
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When Vader was unmasked he killed the emperor & died, an actual act of individuality. Kylo killed his master, then want back to what he was doing before.
Sk8eM dUb
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Earlier you were arguing that they were too similar, now you want them to be exactly the same?
replied 2267d
If Kylo & rey continued down the individual path of destroying both the dark & light, that would be interesting & inline with unmasking.
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Ok great there are parallels between the old and new films “its like poetry… it rhymes”. All of force awakens was parallel to new hope. (How much parallel is plagiarism?)
Sk8eM dUb
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Watch 4 then 3 - they're mirror images of each other.
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Dont have time to re-watch them but yeah Mr. Plinkett points out many of the similar / mirror elements in his Force Awakens review