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White men are people too
replied 2757d
This Marxist narrative has several holes actually. It assumes that value is absolute, not subjective. It ignores win-win. It ignores the creation of value in cooperation
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replied 2757d
There is diference in value of product and value of work that needs to go in to produce it. The second is what Marxists theory of l as bor is about.
White men are people too
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A more sensible way to see this is that the value of the work of a worker is not measurable, and that its introduction creates only confusion. It is better to see this as a marketplace
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No, what you need to see is that product is what has (subjective) value & that value came from work of people who created it, capitalist just owning business isn't work. Understand?
White men are people too
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Leadership of a company often involves a lot of work. The leadership of a company involves high level planning ahead and seeing new trends that may affect the company and much more.
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replied 2756d
1. Lot of capitalists don't work at all, they off-load this leadership to CEO's directors, etc & 2. amount of such work is highly exaggerated & that claim does not hold truth.
White men are people too
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You believe it is exaggerated. If the company gives too much money to someone, another company can do the job better, therefore cheaper, and win contracts. Another marketplace
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deepechain
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This works if the market is a free market. In 2008, competition in the banking industry was shunted by government intervention. "Capitalism" paused by people "smarter than the market".
White men are people too
replied 2756d
I think even normally, this system far from perfect. But to throw out a system that actually has mechanisms for handling this and replacing with one that does not is no improvement
deepechain
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I agree. The insentives and tools of capitalism need some reworking. I think bitcoin is one of the tools that will help enable “Consious Capitalism”.
White men are people too
replied 2756d
But now that we have established that there is at least some work, we can go to the next step. Someone has to do that work, why don't you explain your model for how this can be done
replied 2756d
Have you seen this post of mine at yours? https://www.yours.org/content/capitalism-is-very-much-exploitative-system--here-is-simple-mathematic-41e963a5eae6
White men are people too
replied 2756d
I skimmed it, and it does not seem to provide an alternative at all, only attacks on capitalism.
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How can anyone warrant that owner of business with few 1000 people, capitalists that don't even work there, can get billions in profits? HOW? What logic? Do you get it now?
White men are people too
replied 2756d
Your tone is getting annoying. Yes, there are problems in the world. No, you have not shown that your alternative that you refuse to tell me about will give better results.
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Yes, if capitalist does do SOME work, they should be rewarded for that work ONLY & not more, Capitalism rewards them way more then they deserve, that is the whole point.
White men are people too
replied 2756d
This is easy to say, but hard to do. How much is their work worth? It actually could be a lot some times, like landing a big deal for the company
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Come on man, ALL WORK and skills are NEEDED, management is just one of them & OWNING IS NEITHER A SKILL OR WORK, so there should be no people having absurdly large amounts of $ at all.
White men are people too
replied 2756d
About large amounts of money to some, my understanding is that this is a result of Pareto distribution,which is hard to fight, unless you compare to a ideal that you refuse to describe
White men are people too
replied 2756d
So now we have moved from management to ownership. Owning may take skill/work. You can buy/sell shares in a company based on your predictions.This has value beyond what the owner skims
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Capitalism already created what Marx said it will create, what I am saying now & will always create this, which is extreme wealth inequality, fucked up society, etc.
White men are people too
replied 2756d
I have suggested in another thread that you show me your alternative
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I don't believe, I know this as this is what maths, logic & facts show. Why do you think people are getting sick of Capitalism (they call it corporatism)? Its for this very reason.
White men are people too
replied 2756d
I do not believe that the model of a mustache twitching owner who does no work at all, just milks the workers is the norm. Unless you mean shareholders.But not all companies have those
White men are people too
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That type of leader probably does exist, but even then only when workers still choose freely to work under the conditions offered
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Capitalism doesn't have freedom or democracy, its freedom for capitalist only. Its reason why we have double standards in society, why we have deep state & "Socialism" for rich only.
White men are people too
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I have already explained how workers have many choices, I am not going to repeat that here.
White men are people too
replied 2756d
You have two things that are measurable, the value that someone is willing to give for the product and the price that the worker is willing to sell his work for to his company
White men are people too
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Both of these can be negotiated freely, so both the worker and the seller are willing to do the trade.
replied 2756d
And you still don't understand that all Capitalists do is take portions of productivity of every worker, he doesn't help them at all, he exploits their bad position (needing $ to live)
White men are people too
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This is NOT all they do. One person can build a small bridge. A big bridge requires many people. A huge bridge even more people. Organization of those people is hard.
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And yet, there is no negotiation between the worker who creates the product and the capitalist. That is root of the problem, as capitalist is the only one that makes all decisions.
White men are people too
replied 2756d
Wrong. I as a worker can demand/ask for a higher salary. If I do not get it I can go to a competitor. There is a marketplace of supply/demand out there.
White men are people too
replied 2757d
It also ignores that the workers are free to create their own wealth alone or sell their work at higher cost to someone else if their work is really valuable.
replied 2757d
No, capitalism gives people option to try to be like them & exploit others or be exploited. No one can get very rich from their own work, why capitalists use work of others to get rich
White men are people too
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You say "no", then you say stuff that supports what I said. They ARE free to choose what to do. Dividing types of labor carries some dangers, but also has big advantages
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replied 2756d
Dividing labor is fine & needed surely, which is why I say production is a COLLECTIVE effort, but in Capitalism the capitalist takes the rewards from productivity of worker collective.
White men are people too
replied 2756d
There will always be someone closer to the money who will be tempted to take more for themselves. In any system. Are you saying the workers never take any part in any rewards?
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I am saying workers (those that govern are workers also) should always get proportional rewards to amount of work they have done only, not more or less. Capitalism doesn't provide that
White men are people too
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There are many ways to calculate this "proportional reward", and people will disagree what is "fair". This is not a trivial issue.
White men are people too
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Also, I have not seen any system of government (except if leaders are enlightened, which cannot be enforced by law) that actually provides this.
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I am saying that workers, when they make decisions collectively, you wont have wars to fuel profiteering, or pollution of nature or state, because they go against interest of workers.
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Its not free choice as society has been structured, driven by the economic & political system, so that you HAVE TO chose between being working for capitalists or try to be like them.
White men are people too
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No, I do not have to do that. I can also work for myself. Also, nothing stops me from starting a company of equal partners who part-take in every decision and do the same work.
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Capitalist going into place where people are poor, setting up some business, "giving" these poor people jobs with shit wage (because he can, as people are desperate) is exploitation.
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& its not Capitalist helping them, but capitalist helping himself, looking for opportunity to exploit the vulnerability of others in need, why capitalist create wars & love immigration
White men are people too
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Sometimes those poor people are OK with the arrangement. I do agree that people sometimes do horrible things, but I don't believe other systems keep bad people more in check
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That is the point I am trying to make, its the capitalist that needs other people to produce things, him alone can't do shit... its the other workers that he needs to make him rich.
White men are people too
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Often the company does big jobs that the workers individually cannot do. That means mutual dependency instead of one-way dependency that you pretend is the only state.
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Yes, you can try do that, never said you can't, but you can never get very rich like this because you NEED HELP of other people to make your business grow, you can't do it alone.
White men are people too
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Did you miss the part of the equal partners? And the part somewhere else where I said you do not have to choose to try to get rich?
White men are people too
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"Exploited" is a narrow and overly negative way to view it. I have mostly preferred to have a job where I specialized in one thing and let others do finance for example. Free choice
White men are people too
replied 2756d
We are btw quite free to set up companies where "everyone does everything" if we want. Groups of people who specialize for different parts of a job will likely be more effective though
White men are people too
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And I would argue, the increase in efficiency might make everyone in the group richer than if nobody specialized. Also be aware that some people are only fit for some jobs
White men are people too
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Also, who said it is a human right to be able to "get very rich"?
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You need to think bit deeper to see this, this is very simple logic and truth, but its propaganda narrated by capitalists that twisted your reality so you don't see this.
White men are people too
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To me it looks like it is you who are twisted. I do not have to play this game to get rich, if I do not seek to get rich. I can choose to do so if I want to, but I do not have to.
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The only people who can get wealthy (but not absurdly wealthy) is sportsman, actors etc, people who can't get other people to work for them & have to earn in from their own work only.
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I never said such thing, what I said is that ONLY WAY someone can get so rich, is if they exploit work of others, which is what Capitalism & all previous economic system did as well.


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