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replied 2870d
TrashPosterInTheDark
SFRJ (Jugoslavija). And if you think USSR or China are/were communist, you show you don't know what Communism is. State controlled business is not Communism it is State Capitalism.
replied 2870d
State capitalism and communism are essentially the same thing. The ideal of communism is a lie, and the people who have lived under communism hated it.
replied 2870d
Not even close, just prives how clueless you are.
replied 2870d
Yes, close. There is they lie of what communism offers, and the reality of what communism is. The reality is horrible. The lie is enticing.
replied 2869d
And what is fucked up even more is that Capitalists are the ones that funded and creates Nazis in WWII, they are the ones that attacked every other nation, you fucking cunt of a man.
replied 2869d
You really like twisting history dont you?
replied 2869d
These are FACTS, bankers from Capitalist US & UK are the ones that funded Nazis, and Capitalists from these same fucked up nations also did business with the Nazis. You know shit.
replied 2869d
A bank was going to fund it. It doesnt matter which it ended up being. The wars were not started by banks. Capitalism is not to blame. By the way, banks =/= capitalism.
replied 2869d
As I keep saying you are CLUELESS what Capitalism actually is, completely CLUELESS.
replied 2869d
You can have capitalism without banks. So banks =/= capitalism.
replied 2868d
Now, apply that definition (which is the actual correct definition of capitalism) and you should see that private banks ARE capitalist businesses also.
replied 2868d
Capitalism is system in which means of production (business) is privately owned and in it other people work for the owner (capitalist). The capitalist is the ruler in that business.
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The capitalist is not a ruler, the capitalist is a participant in the system. The capitalist only has control over what they own. That is a good system.
replied 2868d
Capitalism is very shit system, it allows and embraces exploitation, it rewards greedy who do no work the most, it corrupted & controls all politics, even wages wars to make profits.
replied 2867d
All systems allow exploitation. Capitalism helps that exploitation to be mutually beneficial. It rewards greed for both parties. The owners work harder than you realise.
replied 2867d
The owners don't do jack shit.... you can stop taking those comments out of your ass because they stink.
replied 2867d
Are you blind to the realities of owning a business? Their success often depends on the owners. The people at the top do more than you realise. It is because of them people work.
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You are completely brainwashed, that's all there is to it, and your logic and thinking sucks... or... you know all this yet you are just dishonest.
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My logic is sound. The real world provides many examples of how wrong you are. I think you are using certain words interchangeably. Boss =/= owner =/= not working.
replied 2867d
Nope, the bigger the business, the less of work owners do yet the more share of profits they take. This is a mathematical fact.
replied 2867d
How can math make this strange idea a fact? Technically if a business is built up so successfully that the owner isn't required to work then that is because the owner deserves it.
replied 2867d
:large
replied 2866d
That is incorrect information I think part of you knows it. It is really just a set of lies and half truths meant to mislead people.
replied 2867d
No, not all system allow exploitation, you saying that they do is another big fat lie. Bitcoin with PoW is not such system, Communism is also based on this same PoW principle.
replied 2867d
Bitcoin exploits the work of the miners... sure they get paid. The same as a person gets paid for their work.
replied 2867d
Sorry to say it, but you just don't get it. This is such simple logic & easy to understand but you keep on thinking your things that are brainwashed into your mind.
replied 2867d
Could you please explain your logic?
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Bitcoin doesn't exploit work of miners at all, every miner gets paid FULLY for work they have done. Person working for capitalist gets paid much smaller fraction of the work they did.
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Every capitalist is in fact a ruler of that particular business. What monarchy used to be on national/state level, capitalism is on business level. Who else owns & makes all decisions?
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Share holders also own, and help influence decisions. Demand also controls a business, and demand is, to a degree, the will of the people.
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Are you really that stupid that you still can't get the message across? Share holders DO NO WORK, yet they get rewards. This is literally what EXPLOITATION is all about you moron.
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It is hardly exploitation. A share holder invest money in the company. This gives the company more money to build the company to do more. Work is not the only source of value.
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It is literally exploitation. You happen to be in Bitcoin BCH I presume, yet you just keep showing that you don't understand the idea behind PoW principle at all.
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Why do you assume I don't understand PoW? I do say I find it interesting how the concept appeals to communists.
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I don't assume, I can see you don't understand it, if you did you could relate it to how incentives are distributed in capitalist business.
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Miners are directly selling their labour. They are much like capitalist entrepreneurs in this. There is even competition. Competition makes the system healthy, as with capitalism.
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Miners are selling THEIR OWN WORK, Capitalist DOESN'T. You are so clueless you are hopeless.
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Capitalists do sell their labour, but they also serve the important fu action of BUYING your labour. If you want to sell your labour you need someone to buy it. Employers are customers
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You are by the looks of it deliberately ignorant. You are not correct at all, all that shit is just capitalist propaganda.
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Who else will buy your labour?
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The person that buys your labor is consumer, and capitalist is skimming value off for himself. Capitalist doesn't help, he exploits.
replied 2865d
These things are then sold to customers. A building is a good example. A capitalistspays for contractors. Contractors pay for labourers. A customer buys the finished building.
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That is not how things work. Not many people make complete things themselves. Instead people sell their labour to a capitalist. The labour is coordinated to make finished things.
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You just dont get it. Capitalist is nothing but a middleman, same as banks, as ll they really do is extract wealth created by others. There is absolutely no need to have such systems.
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More important is the risk involved. The capitalist puts up the capital to make that labour more productive. They take that initial risk.
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Actually they are important middlemen. They coordinate which labour to buy to create the finished product. Modern things dont get built without a lot of coordination.
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Capitalism creates FORCED COMPETITION, which is NOT a good thing, especially when Capitalist profits from it.
anarchovegan
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Ed, would you mind defining capitalism again, even if you've already done so?
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Economic system in which means of production are privately owned.
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The competition is about seeing who is better. This often also means the most efficient. Efficiency is good in many ways.
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That is not the competition I am talking about. I am talking about forced competition among people and still you ignore the fact that capitalists are exploiting honest working people.
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How are working people being exploited when they are paid for their labour? There is nothing wrong with people competing in the labour they offer.
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Austin
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Ed, you clearly have no formal education is what Capitalism is. https://financial-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/capitalism
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Free market is not a rule but an outcome of a system, which is said to be an outcome of this system, but reality is it has not been the case & gave all the reasons as to why this is so
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The rest of the crap is propaganda & not actual definition of Capitalism & this is the part that you capitalist defenders don't understand.
Austin
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I'm not a capitalist defender. I am a moderate who understands economic systems and the importance of having a balance between the free market and a centralized government.
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Really? And what does it say in your link? "The economic system in which the means of production is privately held" which is exactly what I am saying so I think I know what it is.
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I think @ED is correct.
anarchovegan
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Unless you untangle what ED means by capitalism, you're going to be talking past ED, rather then to ED, aren't you?
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You are right, and it is wrong of me not to put more effort into deciding what he is saying. I should remember that in order to debate you interpret their argument at it's best form.
anarchovegan
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Sarcasm? It's not wrong of you, just ineffective discussion, debate, or conversation.
But please do continue, as that seems your goal. Toodles.
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That was not sarcasm at all. I actually thought about what you said. It made me realise that I shouldn't dismiss people like ED, or LightRider.
anarchovegan
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I'm glad :)
replied 2868d
Yes, you can have capitalism without banks, but that doesn't mean banks are not capitalist businesses. Take definition of capitalism and apply it to banks & you will see you are wrong.
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I never said they are not capitalist businesses. I said they =/= capitalism. The way you jump between capitalist businesses and capitalism in general confuses the issues.
anarchovegan
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This. So much this. I've been feeling frustrated by this.
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US & UK bankers did in fact fund them. look up "trading with the enemy act", see first hand what shit your beloved capitalists are. Also private banks ARE in fact capitalist business.
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Yes, banks funded wars. So what? They didn't start the wars. Whoever funded the nations involved they were going to fight. Dont you get how little it matters?
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You are one of the ignorant & uneducated (of you were properly educated you would know these things) fools that is clueless about this because you are brainwashed by the capitalists.
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Actually I went to a liberal university. Took some political science courses for electives. I am likely more educated than you without having finished my degree.
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Communism is WORKERS owning & controlling means of production. State Capitalism is STATE owning & controlling means of production. They are clearly NOT the same thing at all.
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Yes, and those workers did own the MoP. They did so through their communist party representatives.
TrashPosterInTheDark
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Such a system have never existed and will never exist. It is even more flawed than state owned communism.
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In fact, there are already many communist type businesses, a business which is family owned and run is such business. I think Uber is such business also as it has no owner, its a Coop.
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FYI communism (worker coops) existed before & still exist, you just don't know how to see it. Such system doesn't have to be used nation wide, it can be used in any particular business
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Its standard part of propaganda that exists in lot of human history where terms are used for things they don't actually represent & people don't know any better so they fall for it.
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There is no state owned communism, that's State Capitalism. Just because someone said its communism doesn't mean it is (same as just because BTC is called Bitcoin doesn't mean it is).
TrashPosterInTheDark
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Capitalism: "an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state"
replied 2868d
Trade happens in any economic system, free trade is when no state/individual regulates trade. Capitalists do interfere in trade as they create monopolies & they corrupt the state.
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Markets is place of trade, it is not place of production, Capitalism is system of production, and trade happens regardless what economic system is used.
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FYI, Trade is not part of the economic system definition, this is just more propaganda created by the capitalists, when they call capitalism as free markets. This is just another lie.
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Capitalism is not political system at all, it is economic system. What capitalists do however is bribe politicians in order to corrupt them, so that they defend capitalists interests.
TrashPosterInTheDark
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This is your own isolated definition.
replied 2868d
Here is Naci Pelosi talking about capitalism, at least she admits America is capitalist (and the said that's just the way it is, there's a hint for you).
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Then she slaps the label of "Shareholder Capitalism" which is one of those idiotic propaganda things that you ignorant Americans can't pick up, and end up using this idiotic label.
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Here is the video of her talking
So as I have been saying, this is same CAPITALIST system, the terms Crony, Shareholder etc, are all garbage
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There is no such thing as Crony Capitalism or Shareholder Capitalism (she even got the timeline wrong, its not 20 years, its more like 50 years), there is just CAPITALISM
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which is a system which defines how means of production is organised, who owns it and those who own it make all decisions.
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So just because some capitalists are humans with no empathy, pure greed and they would walk over the dead for profit, and others aren't does not change how the system itself works.
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This is exactly the same as with Monarchy, system does not change depending on king being good person or not, whatsoever. But you are too stupid to understand this.
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No, that is the ACTUAL DEFINITION of Capitalism. You are completely clueless.
TrashPosterInTheDark
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State capitalism isn't a thing by the very definition of capitalism.
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Capitalism, State Capitalism & Communism are economic systems (defined by who owns & controls means of production). Capitalism=Private, Communism=Workers, State Capitalism=State
Sk8eM dUb
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"State capitalism" is fascism by definition. Access to the market with permission from a centralized gatekeeper.
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State Capitalism is close to Fascism but is not the same. USSR was using State Capitalist system but was not Fascist. Germany was using Capitalist system and was Fascist.
Sk8eM dUb
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In the 90s a USDA inspector perceived our company as having racist hiring practices(the 15 or so workers are migrants of the incorrect skin color). Guess what happened?
Sk8eM dUb
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Bigger businesses than ours would have a doctorate in microbiology on staff solely to "deal with" the USDA(not FDA, sorry for the error).
Sk8eM dUb
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You're using Marxist Newspeak definitions of all these words. Anywhere that there's an unelected bureocracy that has a heavy "regulatory" hand in buisiness counts to me. USA included.
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The deep state, which consists of top richest capitalists, are that un-elected government (hence the term deep state) they control the politics, and they are the ones directing it all.
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I am using most simple truthful definitions because most people have been brainwashed a lot, some people even call bailing out banks as Socialism, which is completely wrong.
Sk8eM dUb
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Your definitions are boring and useless because they were fashioned through the narrow and flawed ideological lenses of Hegelian and Marxist theory. They were wrong about human nature
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Not at all, these theories are proven to be correct. Everything Marx said will happen, happened. It is the narrative by the capitalists that is all wrong.
Sk8eM dUb
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Time to admit that you're a religious zealot. There's no other way to put it.
replied 2868d
There you go again talking shit, slapping some labels & misusing the very meaning of them. I use facts & reality to come to my own conclusions, noting religious about that, you fool.
Sk8eM dUb
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You declare blind allegiance to your prophet Carl Marx. Anyone who disagrees is a fool. If that's not religious zealotry idk what is. It's not a label, it's a description.
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Blind allegiance? There is another comment you people like to pull out of your ass. When you can't admit that you are proven wrong, just accuse the person of some shit like this.
Sk8eM dUb
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You must use an "if-then" statement to prove anything. Here I'll show you: IF you use copious profanity THEN it's easy to tell that YOU are the one who is triggered.

Your turn!
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So using profanity makes the statement false? Some great logic you got there /s
Sk8eM dUb
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IF you cannot deduce that that's not the conclusion to the premise I just made THEN you have the reading comprehension skills of a third grader.

Try again Ed.
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IF you can't see that getting money for things you never worked for, which is what Capitalism is based on, THEN you are simply clueless. I'm done with you.
Sk8eM dUb
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Comedy gold as usual!
replied 2867d
You are still showing Ignorance and denial as usual.
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IF you can't understand that real definition of Capitalism is Private ownership of means of production & not free markets etc, THEN you just don't get it.
Sk8eM dUb
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😆😆 Thanks for this, it made me smile
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no wait... you are a FUCKING idiot. There, that's more like it.
Sk8eM dUb
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You are exactly what I said you are, ignorant brainwashed idiot.
Sk8eM dUb
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You just made an argument that was similarly cogent to - If you don't believe the moon is made of swiss cheese then you, you...you just don't GET IT!! lol, who's the idiot?
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As I said... you are an idiot.
Sk8eM dUb
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The fact that you're triggered by people disagreeing with you belies your insecurity and cognitive dissonance. If you were confident I wouldn't be threatening to you.
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Facts is that I proved you wrong and you are the one who is triggered. What is threatening is fucked up Capitalist system that has been fucking up the society you ignorant stupid fuck.
anarchovegan
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Sk8eM dUb
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The banks bail themselves out with your money. It's all just people getting away with whatever they can. Call it capitalism, I don't care. It doesn't make central planning good.
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I never said that central planing is good, but even there devil is in the detail: you can't have everyone do planing, what you can have is everyone deciding if to accept plan or not.
Sk8eM dUb
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(cont. from butt post)... all interstate buisinesses pay the FDA to track every box you ship. They're in your plant every day and are judge Judy and executioner for any activity.
Sk8eM dUb
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I worked at a food wholesale/manufacturing place in Chicago. You literally pay
replied 2868d
I don't understand your point, you literally pay what?
Sk8eM dUb
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Lol sorry, I had to put my phone in my pocket and it posted without me finishing.
replied 2870d
The Yugo car is the impression most Westerners have of Yugoslav industry. It was considered the worst vehicle available in the US. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zastava_Koral
replied 2870d
Yugo was just one thing, we also produced Golf, aircraft, massive ships, even underground airport. How many smaller mations you know do all that?